How managers can boost performance with flexible working

Christopher: Acknowledging you don't have the answers in front of your team and inviting them into that conversation. I've seen leaders just be like, "I just can't, I just can't." It feels like this impossible task, and it's amazing how taking that step and going, "It's okay. Your people do not expect you to have all the answers, and in many ways, you're inviting them to be more engaged by saying, 'Help me with this.'"
Jimmy: Hello and welcome back to this week's episode of The Ways of Working podcast, your weekly dose of practical tips for leaders who are trying to gain that high-performance edge without burning themselves or their teams out. Now, before you put down your phone or click away from this window, make sure you hit follow or subscribe on your preferred platform of choice to make sure you don't miss any future episodes of The Ways of Working podcast with our incredible experts and guests. This week we are joined by chief learning officer at ChenMed and founder of Learning Sharks, Christopher Lind. Christopher, welcome to the show. How are you?
Christopher: Hey, I You know what? I'm doing well. It is Friday Eve, so things are great and I'm looking forward to it. So, thanks for having me on.
Jimmy: Friday Eve. The penultimate day of the week. So, I know I know we've got a fantastic episode focused on a couple of key themes, but I want to start off with something that came up in our earlier conversation, flexibility. And there may be many leaders who are seeing a challenge around the need to be flexible right now, create flexible workplaces right now, because they believe that actually negatively impacts performance by not having people in the office and not having people in close proximity. I want to challenge that mindset and I'm looking for your help to take us on that journey. Tell me about how flexibility can improve performance in an organisation.
Christopher: I love that we're we're going here cuz I love this contrarian position on it, cuz especially as we're coming out of the pandemic, feels like nostalgia's kicking back in and everybody's thinking, "Hey, we got to get back to it." I mean the reality is, and I think part of the issue is, people are defining flexibility very very narrowly. I really think that's one of the biggest problems. So, people look at, "Well, flexibility hinders performance." And then you ask the question, "Well, what do you mean by flexibility?" Cuz that's an odd statement to make, that's a pretty universal statement to make. Because the reality is, I have seen throughout my career, that when you actually understand what flexibility means to someone, really, what you're doing is saying, "I'm trying to create the ideal environment for you to thrive." That's what we're trying to get at. And who does not thrive in ideal circumstances? So, when people say, "Well, I think it hinders performance," it's like, "Do you really think the ideal environment for a person hinders performance?" And once you get into that, then it's like, "Well, I mean, obviously not." And it's like, "Well, then let's have a deeper discussion on this," because I have yet to see an instance where when you get this right, it doesn't exponentially increase performance.
Jimmy: I'm I'm so aligned. You know, the there's that great analogy, metaphor, I never know which it is, where when you talk to the farmer whose crops aren't growing, he doesn't blame the crops. It's about preparation of the soil for those crops to grow effectively, it's about managing the environment that those crops are growing in. And yet, as leaders, often we do blame the crops. And so, when we talk about flexibility, creating that environment for an employee to thrive, what are some of the levers, some of the variables, some of the things that a leader can do that are going to help create that environment? What are some of the What are some of the tools I've got to play with?
Christopher: So, I think this is, again, a misstep for a lot of leaders, is they're immediately jumping to the how, instead of deeply understanding the why. Because I run into this all the time is, "Well, what technology solutions should we get into?" Or, "How could we set up a flexible work schedule for people?" And I'm like, "Hang on a second. Let's take a step back. Have you actually had the conversation, individually, with the people on your team to say, 'What does flexible working look like for you?'" And to some degree, I think people don't like this because they want a one-size-fits-all answer. And the reality is, it doesn't exist. But the good news is, honestly, for a lot of people, flexibility looks a heck of a lot easier than you may realise. I can't count the number of times I've worked with companies or leaders, and they've been so overwhelmed, "I can't do flexibility, I can't do flex-", and we have these conversations with their people and it turns out, for one person, it just means, "Every other Tuesday, can I leave at 4:30 to because my kid has this thing?" And they go, "Wait, wait, that's all That's what you wanted? Eh, that's it?" And they're like, "Yeah, I mean, if I could have that, it would change my world." And you go, "See, you've been resisting something that you thought was something impossible because you didn't even bother to ask." And I think, to me, that's one of the biggest steps before you even jump to tools or solutions or processes, just have the conversation with people and let them know you want to understand what that means to them.
Jimmy: And I think it's in my mind, it's really shifting, and we talked about this literally just before we started, the idea of shifting from "What is their position?" to "Who are they as a person?" and understanding that human-level connection as manager-employee, connection, relationship. And it is, it just starts with that basic conversation, what, "What do you need to feel like you have enough flexibility? And, hopefully, we can make that work for you. And if we can't, let's reach some sort of agreement that does work for us both." But it is, it's starting with the, "What does it look like for you?"
Christopher: And let's talk let's talk and and here's the thing. I see this need only continue We're now we're going to dip dive a little bit into the tech. But as technology continues to rise, the hunger and desire and need for people to have this, the conversation, this being seen at a human level, is only going to rise. And so in many ways, the bar is so low right now, where I don't think sometimes managers and leaders realise that simple act of taking the time to have the conversation and understand that individual circumstance, sometimes that alone can be it. It it could the person could literally go, "You know what? I'm actually really good. But I'm I'm glad to know that if I need something, we can have this conversation and we'll work through that together." Ta-da! You didn't have to change a thing. I mean, that's the crazy part about this. I think sometimes we avoid things thinking the worst, not realising that the simple act alone sometimes carries more weight than spending millions of dollars on enterprise tech, revamping your entire HR process. I mean, all this stuff that a lot of companies are trying to do, and then they're frustrated cuz it didn't work and it's like, "Well, you could have saved yourself a ton of time and money, had you just had a conversation with your people. I don't know."
Jimmy: Could have had a conversation. Yeah. And and I think that that conversation, as you say, it opens the door for a future conversation, but it has a significant impact on the engagement of that employee that their manager actually cares enough to enquire, that their manager feels that they are enough of a an asset to the organisation, that they are seeking ways to make it work versus, yeah, as you say, that one-size-fits-all solution which is, "Yeah, we all come to the office three days a week."
Christopher: Well, exactly. Because people don't want to feel like flexibility is a means to an end. They don't want to feel like the company or their leader is just doing this to shut them up, or to get more work out of them, or things like that. Like, yes, will you get more performance out Like that is a natural outcome that will come from it, but that's not how you should be pursuing it. And that's the thing. Like the number of employees I've talked to that simply being able to say, "I felt heard. I felt understood," is monumental to them, which when you really think about it, it's kind of sad that we're at a state where that simple act can literally blow your employees' minds and change their trajectory dramatically.
Jimmy: Mm. But we live in an environment now where 75% of staff are, according to Gallup, are actively disengaged, so three-quarters of your team are miserable right now. This is one simple way of starting to turn that dial to, "I care about you. I'm thinking about you. I want to support you. I want to make this work for you." It's such a It seems so simple and yet it's not being applied.
Christopher: It does, but isn't I mean, that's the thing. Anybody listening, this is great news for you, because you may be avoiding this topic because you think, "Ah, there's just no way. I don't have time. There's just I can't fit this in." And it's like, "Actually, you can, and it's probably a heck of a lot easier than you realise." Now, that's not to downplay, yeah, there's some real complexity to it and there are some things you're going to have to wrestle through. It's not going to be sunshine and puppies the whole way, but it may not be the post-apocalyptic doomsday that you're thinking in your head that's just impossible.
Jimmy: And until you know, you don't know, right? So, until you ask those questions, you don't know, and then you can take the, "Well, how do we make this work?" once we understand what we're trying to make work and why. Agree. I know you're doing some pretty interesting and novel approaches to flexible working and flexible employment agreements and flexible workplaces, flexible culture, at ChenMed. Could you tell us Could you give us some examples of what's going on, how you're leading it, and how you ended up in those circumstances?
Christopher: Yeah, so it's a bit of an interesting journey, because the company itself is based in Florida. It's a family company, and it was very much an in-person culture. It really was. And the pandemic rocked its core. And I got recruited right in the thick of it. And so, when they reached out, it was, "I mean, you have to move to Florida. There's just no way." And I remember going, "No. We fundamentally will not get along if you even are approaching me and my candidacy through this mindset." And that was a really tough conversation, because it was like, "But this flies in the face of our culture and I don't I don't think you're understanding how work gets done here." And I'm like, "I I do, actually. I do and I understand the core of the outcomes, but what I'm telling you is the activities in which you're thinking about those are very narrow." And we couldn't get there right away. In fact, a fair amount of time passed, and then they called back and it was, "Okay, maybe we can think about this, but how do we get you here frequently?" And I remember going, "You have to be comfortable with the idea you may never meet me, period, ever." And so, when it comes to leading by example, for me, that was one of the And I've done this. It wasn't just here, I've done this everywhere, because where we ended up going with this was I said, "Listen, I understand where you are, I understand this is hard, but you need somebody who knows how to navigate this because whether you like it or not, this is the way work is moving. And I'm not saying that means everybody's going to be remote, but I'm saying you're going to have to create a company culture that recognises you're not going to have a nice, easy answer for every employee and you're going to have to analyse and evaluate these things on a case-by-case basis and determine what's really needed, and I can help you with that. And as the learning leader and as one of the only actually, the only executive who would be remote, I can do it from a position to help change things." And so, when I came in, that was something that even within my own team was a huge shift, because it was like, "Wait, you mean our boss is never coming here? And how's this going to work? And how's we How are we going to get work done?" But it created an infection, in a good way, that changed our team culture, which then started spreading. Then people started knowing, "Wow, you're still nailing your outcomes and yet you have a multitude of different ways you're getting work done." And so, we've really leaned into that with other teams, and sometimes just being the first person to do it. Nobody likes to be the first person. I think of that YouTube video of the crazy dude at the dance festival who goes out and starts dancing, and pretty soon everybody joins. And in many ways, I've seen that happen. Are there still a lot of people that go into the office? Sure. And that's okay, I'm not trying to convince everybody they shouldn't. And, you know, do we still have lots of opportunity? You bet. But we're continuing to grow, and, again, leading by example through everything we do.
Jimmy: Hm. And you know, obviously, there was a resistance, an initial resistance, to to the the plan that you were proposing around your own flexible working. Can you walk us through what are some of the common points of resistance? What What are the fears? What are the worries? What are the concerns that cause that resistance? And what can leaders who either want to set up remote working in their teams or are considering remote working themselves, what can they do to try and reduce those points of resistance a little bit?
Christopher: So, I think one of the biggest ones I There's a few that come to mind, but we could probably have an all-day conversation just on this topic.
Jimmy: I'm sure we could, yes.
Christopher: But what But realistically, one of the first ones is, and this is coming out with the whole talk on generative AI and all this stuff, we have a lot of false assumptions about how things are done today, so the idea of doing it differently seems terrifying because we think everything's working really great now, and the thought of doing it differently, "Oh, my gosh, we're going to break it up." Instead of recognising like, it's actually not working all that well today. So, as I started highlighting and pointing out, "Hey, there's some real breaks in the gaps now. Like, we don't really have a whole lot of data into this now, we aren't really clear on outcomes, we don't necessarily know how work is getting done as it is. Yet, we're afraid to do it differently, when we don't even have a good baseline that what we're doing today is working." And so, actually doing the hard work of helping people realise I did a lot of this work in the IT security space when cloud was becoming big. There was this big fear of things going to the cloud and, "Oh, my gosh, you know, think of these security breaches." But when we flipped the script and said, "Right, but how secure is your data internally now?"
Jimmy: Today. Yeah.
Christopher: It was like, "Uh, well, well, I I mean, I'm sure it's secure." "Are you sure? Like, how do you know?" And then you start digging, and you realise, "Wow, actually, we got a lot of vulnerabilities and cracks in this." Suddenly, the alternative just looks different. Doesn't look terrifying, bad, negative. And I think that's honestly one of the biggest ones. The other ones that The other one I'll focus on and then kind of stop is And this is a shift for managers. There is this delicate art and science of you do need to understand the work well enough to know what could be flexible and what, realistically, couldn't. And that requires understanding what your people do, and how the work gets done, and things like that, without cautiously stepping into the micromanagy zone, where you go, "Well, I know better than you and it must be done." You can't go that far, but you also can't go, "Well, I just don't know anything, but what I do know is that we can't do it that way." And it's like, "Well, okay, that's there's this fine line." And I think there's a lot of room for leaders to move from one of those two extremes closer to the middle.
Jimmy: It's so great. The question that comes to my mind is the, "Help me understand... [dot dot dot] Insert your question here," where you're actually digging a little bit deeper on on your employee's workflow, and work style, and how they're creating the results. But I wanted to go back to the first example you gave first, because I think that analogy of data security is a fantastic one for actually one of the fears of leading and managing a team remotely. How secure is your data right now? How good is your management right now for setting and managing expectations, for setting for managing the delivery of outcomes? And what we certainly saw in the transition to working from home during the pandemic, was a lot of leaders were found wanting, and I think a lot of that fear is, "Actually, I'm not equipped. I'm not equipped to to manage people when I can't see them every day." And so then my fear of the working from home is that actually I'm not skilled enough to lead them. And that's probably quite tough for some of our listeners to hear, because it's a bit of a confrontation to the ego.
Christopher: It's an ugly look in the mirror, right? It's that look in the mirror after you've not been watching what you eat over the holidays, and suddenly you take off your shirt and go, "Ooh," right? Like, maybe I need to do something about, and it can be really hard. And I think there's what you said is so true, and there's a a side-step to that. So one, there's this, "I'm not equipped," which, recognising you're equipped is actually the first step, because then you can go, "Well, what do I need to do with it?" But also going back to this, what I saw happen with the pandemic was proximity created this false sense that things were okay, when actually the Titanic was sinking before the pandemic hit. Like,
Jimmy: Right.
Christopher: engagement wasn't magically, you know, 99% before the pandemic, and then, "Oh, gosh, people went home, and now it's in the toilet." It's like, teams were struggling, they did not have clear expectations on what they were accountable for, manager relationships were in the toilet. I mean, it was bad already. So yes, did it add a layer of complexity to things? Sure, there's no denying that, which is where this skill gap comes in. But I think this goes back to this idea that everything was great. "I knew what was going on, and I had great relationships with my team, and everything was hunky-dory. And then this remote work thing hit, and it all fell apart." And it's like, "No. No, you were on life support pre-pandemic, you just didn't realise it because proximity had put blinders on you."
Jimmy: Is that that metaphor of, you know, it's only when the tide goes out, those people swimming naked get discovered. And it is, you know, it was exactly that. And COVID COVID revealed COVID revealed probably a generation's worth of underinvestment, and that's not to say this is the leader's fault, this is organisations' responsibility to develop their people, but underinvestment in leadership for the modern age. And still, you know, we we partner with organisations and we go in and we talk about, "So how do we lead and manage people?" and the model is a 1990s model of leadership. And and the world has moved since then.
Christopher: It is.
Jimmy: Employees' expectations have moved, generational shifts of culture have occurred, but our leaders are still managing in a command-and-control presenteeism mindset.
Christopher: And work has changed. I mean, that's the whole thing. So many things have changed, and even with that, even the 1990s model, I mean, I worked at GE and was there on the tail end of the Jack Welch thing. It's not like that used to be a thing that people went, "You know what I love? Autocratic, you know, demoralising bosses. I just love it when my boss yells at me, and makes me feel like trash, and doesn't actually really care about my well-being. And if I miss something, I'm screamed at and un-, you know, dressed down in front of my peer-." That never was good, and like you said, it's like,
Jimmy: It never worked for anybody, no.
Christopher: It never worked before, anyway. But again, the industrial age and kind of the way work happened, it kind of was more acceptable. And then as things changed, it was like, like you said, you were swimming naked and the tide went out, and it's like, "Oh, whoa! Like, it's This is really embarrassing now. It's really embarrassing."
Jimmy: Hey there, Jimmy here. Hope you're well. I just wanted to drop into this podcast and let you know that my new book, Beat Burnout, Ignite Performance: The Leader's Playbook for Building a High Performance Culture, is going to be released very soon. And if you haven't already, head over to my website and grab yourself the first chapter of the book, absolutely free. The address you want to go to is beatburnout.jimmyburroughes.com/book and you can download that first free chapter to get you interested and excited about the topic of purpose. And the reason we're giving it away for free is because we think that purpose is the single most important factor for beating burnout and we want to get it into as many hands as possible. So head over to beatburnout.jimmyburroughes.com/book, grab Beat Burnout, Ignite Performance: The Leader's Playbook for Building a High Performance Culture, and enjoy reading. So, then the question is, you know, for leaders who are listening and are looking for that performance edge as they transition to navigating the flexible workplace, what are some of the things that they can do to overcome their own fears of starting that conversation?
Christopher: I mean, some of it is just humility, and I think that's that's sometimes the hardest pill to swallow. Acknowledging you don't have the answers in front of your team and inviting them into that conversation, I've seen leaders just be like, "I just can't, I just can't." It feels like this impossible task, and it's amazing how taking that step and going, "It's okay. Your people do not expect you to have all the answers, and in many ways, you're inviting them to be more engaged by saying, 'Help me with this. Help me with this. What I don't know how to better lead this team in this modern space. I'm a little more disconnected from the work. I know work is being done. I don't have all the answers. Can we talk about that?'" And that doesn't mean you just let the prisoners run the asylum. Like, that's the thing. It's like, I think sometimes we're afraid to do this cuz we're like, "Well, if I do this, they're going to have no respect for me, and they're going to do whatever they want, and I'm just going to get steamrolled." And consistently, throughout my career, when people have taken this bold step in faith and said, "Okay, I'm going to do this and be vulnerable and honest with my team, and invite them into that," you would be amazed how the team will rally around that and go like, "You're You're serious? You want us to help figure this out?" I mean, they will come up with creative ideas, they will work tirelessly to figure this out, because they know you're invested in them. And I think that's some of the things, and through that, you will learn a lot, because there will be things you'll learn about your team members, there will be things you learn about work, and you are in a really good position to make sound decisions. And this helps you do that well, because instead of trying to solve the whole thing yourself, you're saying, "All right, I'm inviting you in." Along those lines, talk to other people who are doing it well. I think this is a miss that for myself as an introvert, took years in my career to recognise, like you got to get out of your own four walls. You got to talk to other people and be intentional about setting up time with people and just hearing from them, "How are you navigating this?" Invest in your own development, whether that's talking to people, whether it's setting aside time to learn. Well, what are some skills? What are some things other managers are doing? I think sometimes we're just so busy on the treadmill, we forget that part of success, I mean, going back to a weight, I'm into the I'm into weight lifting. Some of the best ways you get stronger is you build rest into your schedule.
Jimmy: Mhm.
Christopher: And the same thing is true with development and success. If you don't build development into your regimen, you are going to fall behind. There is no complacency. You're either growing or you're decaying. And the only way you don't decay is to be intentional about what you build into it.
Jimmy: Absolutely. Some some great insights there around what I would call seeking out that 70-20-10, seeking out the 20%, interacting, getting some mentoring, getting some coaching, whether that's in a mastermind environment, whether that's in just a coffee conversation environment, or whether that's seeking out some expertise from a consulting organisation or somebody else who has helped others navigate this space. Plenty of opportunities to to fill your cup with knowledge around how flexible working can can be adopted successfully. But equally, that 70% on the job. I love that idea of, "Team, ideas please. We've got We've got to work through this together, so let's work on it together to get through it." And I think there's a There's some beautiful ideas there that very practical, again, simple to adopt, not necessarily easy, but simple to adopt, and then work through the the the implementation. Yeah, exactly that.
Christopher: No, simple, but not easy. And the other thing I would add, just Go ahead, yeah. one last thing that came to mind is, I think sometimes, especially as leaders, we have this idea that we've got to hit the ball every time, and I think moving your mindset from not accepting failure to expecting it, and going, "You know what, like, we're going to try some things," and they're going to go down like the Hindenburg. I mean, it's It's going to go down in a ball of glory, and we're going to go, "Wow!" That sucked.
Jimmy: We learned from that one.
Christopher: It did not It did not work well. Like, what we did learn is that it didn't work. And being okay with that, and knowing that you are not less than, you are not a failure because you didn't hit every single ball. I mean, I'm not a sports person, but the best ball players, go look at batting average stats, nobody's hitting 99% of pitches thrown at them, period. And that's not the way life works. So, I think that's one of these other things, is sometimes we have these expectations that are like, "Are you kidding? Failure is life's best teacher." If you're not failing, you're not trying hard enough.
Jimmy: Mhm. I agree with you. The I had a fantastic conversation in a previous episode with the amazing Julia Pompei Morales from from eBay, and she said exactly the same thing. You have to You have to recalibrate your risk appetite to try new things, because there is an intolerance of failure. So, "Oh, you tried to set up a flexible working arrangement, and it didn't work with that employee." Great. Reset your risk appetite, and say, "Well, let's try something smaller next time." But let's keep trying until we can find a way of making it work. And it's not about, "Oh, well, I failed with that employee." It's, "Well, I learned what didn't work with that employee, and I now am more capable, more competent, and more focused on Maybe I didn't have the right conversations. Maybe I didn't set expectations clearly enough. Maybe I didn't check in frequently enough. Maybe we didn't have a working cadence set up that was optimised for a flexible worker." But each of those things is an education, it's a lesson versus a failure.
Christopher: Yeah. Well, and the fact it didn't work for that employee doesn't mean it doesn't work. And I think that's one of the other things. I talk to even my own boss and other leaders at ChenMed and other organisations where I go, "Listen, I'm a unique case. I would not expect you to have the same expectations of flexibility for everyone on your team. In fact, for some people, it would blow up in a ball of glory." And I think that's the things, is sometimes we're like, "Well, you know what, I tried it with this person," and either you give up too soon on that person, or you just go, "Well, it didn't work with Jimmy. So, see? Flexibility doesn't work." And it's like, "Whoa, why are you equating one failure with this universal failure?" And that's just not acceptable in anything. This isn't just flexible working, this is just life.
Jimmy: Mhm. And to go back to one of your earlier statements that, "Oh, well, you know, it we've got a a fundamentally broken working structure in our organisations anyway, and and all we've done is exacerbate it with COVID and now we're trying to kind of work out what to do next." And so, there's that fear of, "Well, what if this all goes wrong? What if we do make a mistake?" But there's very few leaders asking the question, "What if this goes really right?" What What if suddenly, by opening up flexibility, we unleash this massive amount of engagement, and potential, and productivity that we hadn't even considered before? And what if this really works for our people, and we solve retention issues, and well-being issues, and all of the other, you know, plethora of challenges that leaders have? What if it goes really right?
Christopher: Right? Yeah, we focus on the what could go wrong, instead of the and, right? It's not that you ignore that, but then there's also the Yeah, and what if it goes really right? I mean, you want a perfect use case of this. There were a lot of people that thought when the pandemic hit, like this was the end of the world. Companies were all going to fold in on themselves, and this this was it, like I apocalypse now. And there are companies that just were nobodies that blew up in good ways, and it's like, "Well, how do you explain that then?" I mean, nobody saw that coming. There were I've seen innovation that would have taken decades in behemoth companies that, overnight, they change their business model and started generating revenue in ways they were like, "How did we How did we not do this?" "Well, we we didn't listen to the product team before, cuz we thought, 'Well, that's too risky. We'll never get to that.' We had no choice. We did it, and, wow, what do you know? I guess it wasn't all that bad." And not to say that's universal, but I think we miss a lot.
Jimmy: I agree. It's the same. I mean, obviously, you know I'm an ex-military officer and and one of the lessons that we learn in military history is that the speed of advancement and prog- progress is always accelerated in conflict. Whether it's, you know, wartime developments in World War Two, essentially the technological tail that's come off the back of World War Two is entirely due to World War Two, rockets, cell phones, microwaves, all that stuff. I think COVID has actually given us some not to certainly not to underestimate the significant impact on people's lives and and livelihoods, but it's also given us some massive opportunities, as you say, for innovation. And I think now, the opportunity to examine our work models and the way we build our cultures, is, again, that golden opportunity to create the next generation of the workplace that that is available to leaders if they're just willing to step into that conversation.
Christopher: Yep. The worst thing we can do right now is bounce back. I think the best thing we can do is bounce forward. And, yeah, you can learn from the mistakes and the catastrophic failures. There were some catastrophic failures that came out of this. Don't ignore those. But also don't go, "Ugh, you know what would fix this? Let's just go back to the way things were." Like, don't, do not.
Jimmy: Mhm. I'd like to shift focus slightly to Learning Tech Talks, and Sure. the amazing work that you're doing there. Can you Can you share with our listeners a little bit more about that?
Christopher: Yeah, so over the years, I've always been one who I love talking to vendors. I'm fascinated by technology, and I'm always studying human behaviour and the way work happens within my own orgs and then other orgs. And so, as a result of this, I was a little bit of an odd egg, which, fine, I'm that way in life, in general. But a lot of people would reach out to me and say, "Hey, what are your thoughts on this? How do you think about this? What do you think of this new technology? How might you apply that?" And it really was becoming kind of it was eating way too much of my time, we'll just put it that way. So, as my wife was in labour with number five, I was like, "I'm going to do a live stream, hun." Which probably, hindsight, not the best time to, you know, make this decision and announce this. But that's how it spun up, and what it turned into was really trying to bridge the gap for people of how is technology fundamentally changing the way the world works, and how can you tap into that? Because, yeah, there's just similar to what we're talking about with flexibility, can it cause major damage? I mean, this whole generative AI thing, I'm spending way too much time in conversations on this thing. Yeah, there's some massive risks with it. Huge risks that companies and people need to be aware of. But there's also massive opportunity, and so So what do you do with that? And that's really what I why I started doing the show, was to say, "Well, let me bring some of the brightest minds in technology into the conversation and dig deep with them on, how are we approaching this? How are we thinking about it?" And then bringing my practitioner lens of, "Okay, it's one thing in concept and theory, but in practice, how do we dig through these hard things?" And it's been fun. I had no idea where it was going to go. Four years later, it's still charging along.
Jimmy: That's fantastic. And I think you're you've hit something that perhaps many senior leadership teams are not paying attention to, which is, how is this technology going to impact our business? How is this going to impact our culture? How is this going to impact the future of our earning potential? And so, having access to something where they can listen and digest some expertise without having to hire an external consultant to give them advisory um information, but actually to say, "Well, this this is the type of things that you might want to think about as a senior leader, based on the emergence of this technology platform, whether it's generative AI, or whether it's something else." But I think those are the types of conversations that should be occurring around the leadership table now, right now. Do you Do you agree?
Christopher: Yeah. Yeah, I do. And I and I understand honestly why they're not. Because the reality is, technology is moving at a pace way too fast for most people to stay caught up with. It just really is. And I think this is one of those things where it's my jam. So, it's fine, I live and breathe it. So for me, it's not hard, it's just what I do. I think, and reflect, and I do nothing but do this kind of stuff. And so for me, it's like, "Well, okay, there's no way every executive can sit and try and keep up on, 'Wait, generative AI? Wait, what about this one? What about How's this affecting this and that? And how is-'" You just can't. And so, I think that's where, going back to this intentional time for development, I've tried to create this as a way to say, "Listen, you are going to burn yourself up if you try and lean into an area that's not your sweet spot." And it's not the sweet spot for most people. Most people are either hyper-technical, and they struggle with that connection back. Other people are hyper-people focused, and struggle with that. Other people are hyper-business focused. And so, that trifecta of, right, how do you think about those three, it just happens to be where I live and breathe. And so, yeah, I think we need more of those conversations, but I recognise and am very empathetic. I don't point the finger at leaders, where I'm like, "Why aren't you doing more of this?" It's like, yeah, cuz it's really hard, and most people, this is not their strength.
Jimmy: That's a It's a really good insight. And one of the things I like that you said was the idea of just reducing that pressure on yourself to have to be across everything. There might be somebody in your team who has more of a leaning, but they can bring that conversation to the table. And the The conversation isn't necessarily knowing all about it, it's knowing the impact it might have on your business. That's That's the differentiator, I think, is that is that, how might this affect us, and how do we navigate through that and maintain resilience and performance as an organisation, knowing that that is happening around us, knowing that that's a new thing? And so, yes, if you're the CEO, you don't have to necessarily know all about what ChatGPT is and what it does, but you should know the potential impact it could have on your business and how to navigate through that.
Christopher: Sure. And you better make sure you're around people who do, and making sure you've got those right people there, cuz that's the thing. I think sometimes we've placed this burden on ourselves to be incredibly talented at everything. And it's like, you you can't. And honestly, with the pace of technology and the pace of work, you couldn't You really couldn't do it before. You could not do it now, if you had a thousand times more hours in the day. Like, if you I mean, you literally could It's just like, you can't. And so, you have to be willing to say, "All right, I'm going to step back from some of these things, but I'm going to make sure I have the right people in my spheres that are helping bring that lens so that I can focus on making the critical decisions and understanding what's around the corners that I'm not seeing."
Jimmy: Which, I guess, goes back to what we talked around earlier in our conversation, is that you don't have to have all the answers. You don't have to be the expert. You just need to go and ask, and have those conversations that generate your insight enough to manage more effectively.
Christopher: Yep. And I feel like sometimes we think that's giving something up. It's not, because you're still in a position of, "Hey, you got to make decisions, you still have to think critically about this." It's not I think sometimes people are afraid they're giving something away and it's like, "You're not giving anything away, you're not less than by saying, 'I need people to help me figure some of this stuff out. I'm responsible and accountable for making the decision and, yeah, that is why I'm in charge, but I don't have to be the expert in all of it.'"
Jimmy: And those people around you are desperate to show you what they can do, and desperate to show you how committed and how much potential they have and just looking for an opportunity to succeed and support you, if you can open the doors to it. Yeah, no, you're so right. Christopher, um this has been, obviously, one of the most interesting conversations that I I think I've had on on the show. And I'm sure there are people who would like to continue that conversation with you and reach out, find out a little bit more about the things you do. What's the best way for them to reach you and get in touch?
Christopher: Oh, so I'm on LinkedIn a lot. So, I usually tell people that's one of the best ways to get in touch with me cuz I'm pretty quick to responding to messages and I'm on there pretty actively. I mean, you can contact me through my website. Um I also do a lot on YouTube, um especially as I've been leaning more into, how can I actually crowd source some of the biggest questions people are asking and help? Cuz that's really all I want to do is just help people navigate this, cuz it is terrifying, and it's overwhelming. But yeah, those are the first ones that come to mind.
Jimmy: Amazing. And we'll pop the links to everything in the show notes so you can reach out to Christopher. Christopher, thank you so much again. I really appreciate your time and some of the insights that you shared with listeners. That's it for this week's episode of The Ways of Working podcast. If you enjoyed the conversation here, why not head over to beatburnout.jimmyburroughes.com/book and grab chapter one of our amazing upcoming book, Beat Burnout, Ignite Performance. It's the leader's playbook for building a high-performance culture. So, if you're looking for practical tips and to understand why people in your team or yourself are burning out and what to do about it so you can all keep working and perform better, this is the place for you. Go to beatburnout.jimmyburroughes.com/book and grab that first chapter. We'll also keep you posted when the full book is released very soon. Also, if you enjoyed this episode of The Ways of Working podcast, don't forget to follow or subscribe on your preferred podcast platform of choice and we'll make sure that you get all of the upcoming episodes as they come out every single week. Take care. Speak soon.