How managers identify the root cause of performance issues

Amanda: Try not to, although very difficult, try not to assume you understand. Try not to assume that you know how things are done. Try not to assume what the problems are, what people want, what people need. I would say the key, the number one key takeaway is: ask.
Jimmy: Welcome back to this week's episode of The High Performance Leader, the podcast for leaders working in complex, challenging environments, to gain insights and ideas which help you increase your impact without burning out, and to help you build a high-performance culture in your team. I'm your host, Jimmy Burroughes. And if you're new to The High Performance Leader, make sure you subscribe or follow so you don't miss any of our upcoming episodes before you put down your device. Hello, and welcome back to this week's episode. I am absolutely thrilled this week to be joined by the incredible Amanda A Russo. Amanda is the founder and chief operating officer of an incredible little boutique agency called The Cornerstone Paradigm Consulting business. She has had such an incredible career honing her skills in process improvement, really gaining a deep understanding of end-to-end business operations, and now works with a variety of industries aligning people, processes, and technology. We're going to find out some fascinating stuff today about some of the projects that she has worked on and how they've helped businesses perform better, and how that she has partnered with leadership teams to create some incredible business results. Amanda, welcome to the show.
Amanda: Thank you so much for having me, Jimmy.
Jimmy: It's um you know, I think people really underestimate the power of getting under the hood and doing some process improvement. How did you end up in this world?
Amanda: Oh my gosh! So, Jimmy, it's really funny. I just came to this like a- a conclusion not too long ago on how it all started, which I don't know that I realised until like quite recently. So, the seed was really planted when I was just a teenager working a part-time job, and uh you know, it was a small restaurant, local restaurant in high school, you know, kind of helping out. And at the time, I didn't realise. You know, I was really just trying to be helpful and resourceful. And at the time, I didn't realise that as I was helping these business owners kind of manage and run the day-to-day business, even though it was really quite small scale, uh you know, it was a small mom-and-pop shop, I didn't realise that I was learning about things like supply chain and rolling inventory, and what does it all mean, and how do we get from one day to the next, and how do we, you know, essentially run a business? That was really like my first real exposure to running a business. And from there, you know, I had a really natural sort of I sort of gravitated toward it. So, I, you know, here I am, oh, many, many moons later, um you know, professionally doing this. So.
Jimmy: Mmm, so interesting that these foundational experiences that we have in our youth end up driving the path that we chart as adults. And, you know, as you say, now you do this professionally for organisations. Why do you think there is a need for a process consulting organisation to come in and partner with businesses? What's the performance opportunity that they're looking for that you go help with?
Amanda: Yeah. So, organisations usually hire someone like me and my team when something is happening. So, that is when something is really positive happening, we've scaled 5x over the last two years, whatever it might be. And now everyone's kind of drinking from a firehose, and, you know, we need to really get some standardisation and processes in place so that there is consistency from inception of the of a project to the to the end of a project. You- You know, or if people are going on holiday, or they're going, you know, uh on lea- some kind of leave, a long extended period of leave, your colleagues will know how you do whatever it is that you do and and the business can st- still go on. Or the opposite, which is unfortunately more common, which is we've either got high attrition, a bleeding bottom line, you know, something in the negative is happening to the business. And what we've seen a lot of the times leading up to talking to someone like us is business leaders have already tried to We call it DO- DIY, and I and I hate to say it. It's, you know, it sounds a little bit like a home improvement project. But they kind of try to DIY it, you know? Um They try to, you know, pull all the tools out of the toolbox that they know how to do. You know, we're going to buy new software. We're going to buy this. We're going to And usually the software is something popular, you know, a common name that we all know. You know, so they they do. And and and I I appreciate the effort to try to fix these problems, but it's kind of like treating a symptom and not really understanding what the problem is. And so the gain here is The way I like to word it is, the gain here is the way you do one thing is the way you do everything. So, you're either going to solve the problem, get to the very root cause of whatever the problem is, and it could be multiple problems, multilayer, or you're going to just keep kind of throwing everything in the kitchen sink at it and kind of hope something sticks, which will cost you an enormous amount of money, potentially, you know, loyal customers, great employees. There's there's a very really high cost to doing it the latter. So, you know, why not just hire someone? You spend a little bit of money upfront, but the ROI pays for itself.
Jimmy: Mmm.
Amanda: So, I'm sorry for the winded answer to you.
Jimmy: Not at all! No, I mean and- and I guess there'll be some leaders listening who have potentially worked with consultants or worked with one of the big four companies. They were brought in to to make change, or to transform that organisation, and maybe it's gone well. Maybe it hasn't gone well. How does what your offering does differ to an organisation that might partner with, you know, a BCG, or a PwC?
Amanda: Yeah. So, here's here's what and- and I don't want to leave you with the impression that I don't like any of the big four. That's That's not the case. But here's what I will say: I don't have such a large overhead, right? So, we're only as good as our last win. There's an old saying, and you've probably heard this, no one's ever gotten fired for hiring you know, or buying Apple, or whatever it is, right? Like so it feels safe to do those things, and I understand that. But we don't hire college graduates. We're not going to be the team that's going to tell you the things that you want to hear, because my reputation relies on it. I'm telling you we're going to solve your business issues. We're going to get to the root cause. We're going to get to the bottom of it, come up with the solution roadmap, and get you to where you're looking to go. I have to stick to that plan. I have to prove to you that you've made the right decision, because I'm such a small company. We're such an intimate company, 20, 25 consultants altogether with my contractors and stuff, that we don't have a choice but to deliver what we say we're going to deliver, right, because there's no I don't have a title, you know, a big one of the big four names above me to sort of be the cushion under my bottom, right? So, our offering is different in that you are getting experts with 20-plus, some 20-plus years experience each collectively working together to solve your problem, as opposed to and I'm not knocking it, everyone has to learn somewhere, but as opposed to college or university graduates learning on the job. There's a difference, right? I won't say that we're the most expensive, but we're not the cheapest, either. So, you're really paying for our expertise and not, you know, folks learning on the job, which the it's fine. It's just that's just not our model.
Jimmy: I- I'm really I'm hearing potentially some conversations that you may have had with organisations where they have previously partnered with these larger consulting firms, and maybe it hasn't gone right. Why do you think that there is a a a leaning towards, let's go big four, let's go let's go large consulting firm as opposed to partnering with a a a more boutique agency?
Amanda: I think it's safe. It feels safe. It's why you buy a a big-name brand television, or watch, or whatever it is, like these really big purchases, phone, because it feels safe. You feel like you know the name, you trust the name. It doesn't mean that that the smaller brands or the names that are virtually unknown are not great, or sometimes even better than the larger name, but I think the big names, they feel safe. It doesn't mean that it's it's a great strategy. It just, you know, it's an easier way to pass the buck, right? Like, "I didn't do it. I hired, you know, big four, and they did it, you know? They're the ones that," you know, so it's easier to it's easier to pass the buck and not get fired.
Jimmy: So, it sounds like there's two barriers to really getting to the root cause of some of these issues. Number one is that, we think we can do it ourselves,
Amanda: Yes.
Jimmy: and we have the skills that we need in-house. Uh and we don't want to spend the money. And then if we admit that we can't do it ourselves, that's a failure on our part, but then the only option is to is to partner with a a larger organisation because that's safe. When you tend to partner with organisations, what's your first sort of few steps of your process to to get to the root cause of the issue? What do you start looking for?
Amanda: Yeah. So, I think, you know, really running an organisation, process improvement, it's kind of all interconnected, right? And so our very first First of all, we have an agreement with leadership and stakeholders that when you are hiring folks like us, we do want to engage stakeholders. We, of course, we want to engage leaders. We want to hear what they have to say. You know, it is their project. It's their baby. It's It's how they grow their resume, right, essentially. And that's essentially what larger organisations are looking to do, leaders are looking to do. Um But we have an agreement with them that they will not try to interrupt the process. And the process consists of us having and spending an enormous amount of time with the doers, the boots on the ground, the front-line folks, the folks that are in the day-to-day weeds that are facing off with your customer, that are using the technology that you're purchasing and in and out of, right? That are inputting data into these different pieces of technology. Those are the people that we spend an enormous amount of time with because they're using it every day. They're seeing really what's going on every day. And really this is a matter of So, my team and I and folks like me are skilled and trained in listening. So, it really boils back down to listening. It's listening to what people are saying, listening with your eyes, listening to what they're not saying, trying to understand where the fear comes in. So, it's a really It's It's um It's a very delicate, and I would say, it can be a little bit longer of a process our way, but it helps us gain buy-in, our approach. And it also, you know, helps us get to the root cause, right, because they'll be very candid with us.
Jimmy: I love that. And you you talk about going to the place where the work is done versus just talking to the leadership team. Why is that so important? Surely, the leaders know what's going in their business, and they understand all of the detail, and where all the problems are?
Amanda: Yeah. Um I would say yes. I think when you're on a when you're in a leadership role, or on the leadership level, there is a level of the business pain that you understand. Of course, your team is telling you, but there are also things that they're not telling you. Some of it might be, "This is just the way we do business. This is just how we get from one day to the next." And some of it is, you know, "I don't want to say anything, cuz I don't want to get fired. I don't want to, you know, I don't want to lose my job. I This is how I pay my bills. This is how I put food on my table and feed my family. So, I'm going to keep my mouth shut and get from one day to the next because I need this job." So, they're not going to tell you. But my team and I will go in, and we will really, you know, really start from the very beginning as if we were a new employee ourselves. Understand the business, cuz we've seen it a thousand times. So, it's important to really listen, ask questions, observe, pay attention, and do all of the other things that folks like myself are trained to do to understand the business from their perspective.
Jimmy: Yeah.
Amanda: Will we take all of it? No. But it's important for the folks to to feel heard. Right. So.
Jimmy: From my experience, when you go talk to the people who are doing the job, actually, you can get a a slightly different perspective on what the core issues are versus what the perception of the core issues are because often leadership are shielded from the reality of the situation, or what might be happening there, right?
Amanda: Yeah, exactly. So, as an employee, you're doing everything to try not to get in trouble, to get a raise, to get a bonus, right? So, you're, you know, you're going to tolerate things on the doer level or the front-line level that, let's say, a leader would not. I also I also would caution to say leaders, in most cases, in most cases that I've seen, and I've been doing this forever, but in most cases I have seen, leaders tell me the story of how it is done. And if I challenge them and say, "Okay, well, if I if I sit you in this seat, you're going to be able to do this exactly how you just told me?" Chances are they will not. If I really call their bluff and put them in that seat, they will not be able to do it. Genuinely, they will not be able to do it without help.
Jimmy: Mmm.
Amanda: So, that's why we say we don't really we We do want to engage the stakeholders. We do want to in- you know, engage leadership. Um But it is really, really important for them to not interfere with our process in truly understanding how the business is run, because they're running the business at a high level. They're not running the business from you know, a very front-line perspective, if that makes sense.
Jimmy: No, absolutely. And I think having that authentic and transparent view on the actual business process, what's really happening, and then being able to go back to the leadership team and explain why that solution that maybe a Band-Aid solution isn't working can build trust and can really help to move things forward.
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Where do you tend to encounter resistance once you've identified what the root cause is, and we've come up with this great change process that's going to shift the business forward, and people say, "Oh, no. Uh we don't need to do that," or, "I don't want to do that"? Can you give us an example of where this has happened? Because I think it happens quite a lot in organisations.
Amanda: It happens every time. So, I get a lot of resistance, you know, one, when leadership, on any level, tries to interfere with the process. And the resistance comes in where we identify a gap, or we identify an issue that their team has shared with us and we have seen it with our own eyes, and leadership just says, "Well, this is why we did," you know, and they start to make excuses on why this happens, and why we do it this way, and so on and so forth, where my team and I have been in hospital networks, all the way down to your, you know, 20-team 20-person team, you know, not-for-profit, right? We've seen this a thousand times over, and it's not the way we do business. It just it doesn't have to be, is the point. Um So, we get a lot of resistance from fear. A lot of resistance, in general, comes from fear, whether it's from an employee level, or a leadership level, fear. Change is hard, and it's scary, and we don't know what's going to happen, and, "What's going to happen to my job? What's going to happen to me?" Imposter syndrome shows up, even leaders all the way up to the C-suite, they still face imposter syndrome. And and so it's, you know, it's a delicate situation to be in. We try our very best to deliver, like I said, we back our our findings up with facts from the organisation. We try to use all of the tools that we know to use. And, you know, and it's understandable. So, we we try to be as patient as we possibly can as far as delivering the not-so-great news that, you know, no, your team isn't online shopping, that they're actually, you know, moving like robots to try to keep up with all of this. And and so so the I think the resistance comes in when all of the leadership isn't on board with, "This is going to happen. We do need to change. We do need to improve. We will be replacing your homegrown system that was your baby, and you, you know, you, right, you've added the You know, you were there from the very, very beginning," um that kind of thing. And and so it typically is uh the job of uh us to to to to continue with the change management, which we start from the very beginning of a project. And then just being patient with change, right? So, talking it through, understanding their fears, understanding what's going on, reiterating, you know, that this is really to improve the organisation rather than, you know, we try to focus on what you're going to gain rather than what you're going to lose, if that makes sense.
Jimmy: So, Amanda, I mean, this is just so interesting how leadership teams can react to the good news or the bad news being shared about what's going on. But also, I'm sure that there is a reaction from the shop floor staff, the people who the change is maybe happening to or happening with. Um Can you give us an example where you've worked with a client and there's been some resistance, how you managed that, and how the leadership team were integral in supporting that change process?
Amanda: Yes, I have a great example for that. So, um many, many years ago, we worked with a law firm, and, you know, the legal industry it really there's not a ton of change there, right? Like it's a pretty standard It's a pretty standard process. This particular law firm was growing and evolving, and pretty innovative, frankly, for for the space. And uh long story short, when we implemented quite a number of pieces of technology to kind of help the organisation, one, stay organised as they were growing and evolving with document repository systems. We'll just use that as as as the first example. Um We did. We did receive a lot of, you know, resistance. Like I said, the legal industry has very little change, you know. I mean, as long as I can remember, it's there it's really not not an evolving space. But there are a lot of tools and resources to help help them, help the legal um secretaries, help, you know, uh paralegals, and so on and so forth. And so this particular resistance was from um she's a legal secretary, at the time, I want to say, she probably was in in the in the role for 40 years, right, or something something wild. Like she's she's seen it. Um So, from the day of typewriters, you know, that kind of thing. And here we are, you know, these these young folks are coming in and we're implementing all this technology, and she does not want to use it. And the truth of the matter is, is any time we see resistance, there's fear behind it. "What's going to happen to me? What's going to happen to my job? I'm not going to know how to use this. They're going to get rid of me." You know, the whole There's There's a story that you start to craft in your mind anytime change is about to happen, either even change that you want. Instantly, I mean, and this person, she gave me a hard time, to say the least. And um I knew I knew she was terrified. And so really when we implemented, you know, the software and um everything was up and running, she wasn't using it. And the folks that she worked for weren't using it. So, I said, "Okay. Well, now I'm going to have to be a little bit heavy-handed." And in this particular instance, I actually removed the rights from everyone's computer to save anything to their desktop. It would automatically save to their to the repository that we put in. So, it was a little bit heavy-handed. I mean, at the time, it was I I really didn't have a choice, because the the point was, is important documents were going out to, let's say, the Supreme Court that were inaccurate, because people were saving it to their desktop, so on and so forth. So, uh long story short, with this one, I I was very heavy-handed with that one, forced the whole company. So, no more fixing your resume at work, no more, right? But all the work that they were doing had to be saved to this repository or it wouldn't save at all. And you know, I went over and I sat with her, and spent an enormous amount of time, like hour hours, days, if not, with her just making sure that she understood how to use it, how to use the search function, and the end of the day, you know, it it it worked. She was She was terrified. She was terrified. The folks that she were the attorneys that she worked for were terrified. No one know knew how to use it, and um you know, I think the whole idea of this new innovative thing was just scary. So, you know, you do a little bit of hand-holding. You You spend a little extra time just to sort of mitigate the fear, mitigate the anxiety. It's, you know. Yeah. So So, sometimes it's necessary. You need that.
Jimmy: Absolutely. And I I think that's really interesting observation that you see resistance is often the root cause of that resistance is in some sort of fear. So, leadership teams need to work really hard on building that environment of trust, so people can voice their fears and they can work with people like you to to overcome the the barriers that might be getting in the way of the change. Because often, it's very difficult for leadership teams, if they aren't aware of what the root cause of those fears are, again, it becomes a Band-Aid solution, or it becomes, yes, we've done the implementation and it bounces out, because people are really resistant to it.
Amanda: Yeah.
Jimmy: I can imagine now we're seeing what you were talking about as resistance to essentially using a computer. We're seeing some some process challenges come up in organisations now based on the last three or four years worth of incredible changes in the world. What are you predicting are the things that leadership teams should be aware of when they're looking at their own processes, and to start thinking about, you know, what's coming up for us that we might want to start paying attention to?
Amanda: Yes. Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest thing is, so process improvement, it is a multilayer exercise, right? And so process improvement is not just fixing the processes, automating things, stacking technology. Process improvement also sort of bleeds into something called business continuity planning, which plans for pandemics, flood, fire, right, inclement weather, right? Like it plans for all of these natural and accidental disasters that no one predicts is going to happen. I mean, if someone told anyone of us that the whole world was going to shut down for several years, and we were all going to work from home, I'm positive, like people would look at you like you are upside down. And it happened. You know, we've had natural disasters that have wiped out entire towns. And so here's what I would say, is process improvement, in and of itself, is a great exercise. It's It's It's important. But it's also a way for you to plan if your contact centre is hit by lightning or flooded, is totally underwater, how do you still run your business, which sounds a little bit cold, but let me just finish the thought. How do you still run the business? How do you still serve your customers with business continuity planning, how do you still serve your customers while making sure that your employees know what to do if, God forbid, a disaster happens, if an accidental or uh natural disaster happens? So, it's It's sort of kind of goes in tandem. It's process improvement to fix the immediate, but it's also to plan for the future. It's to make the future possible, I suppose, is what I'm trying to say, right? Like so you can't have people saving things from their desktop on their desktops or or whatever it might be. You may not have a desktop. So, are you backing it up to the cloud? Are you still using physical server? Like there's all all kinds of continuity planning that goes sort of in tandem with process improvement. It's just process improvement is the first step in sort of the larger picture of running a business.
Jimmy: I'm really fascinated by that idea of business continuity planning and all the things that have happened, and potentially more things that might happen in the future. I come at it from a slightly different angle in that the war for talent or the need to try and attract and retain amazing people. And if your organisation is frustrating your employees with cumbersome processes, over-egged bureaucracy, decision-making processes that take forever, those amazing people are going to leave and go somewhere else. So, thinking about, you know, what can we do to simplify the job for our best people? Where are people getting stuck, or hung up, or or blocked? Uh That to me feels like a really great place to start as well, right?
Amanda: Yeah.
Jimmy: Yes.
Amanda: Yeah. I mean, it really, you know, I think any organisation, any leader that might be listening to this today, it's It's really a matter of, how are we setting our people up for success? Are we giving them all the tool all of the tools and resources that they need to be successful? Are we investing in them, in their training, in their development? Are we investing in their, you know, in in in the workplace culture, which goes far beyond, you know, pizza parties, and pool tables, and whatever else everybody You know, these these companies have in their in their business. It's just really holistically setting people up for success, and are we doing that? So, yes, that is a great opportunity for process improvement, and process improvement, although multilayer, it's it's a good place to start.
Jimmy: Fabulous. Amanda, thank you. That is really interesting. A couple of last questions for you.
Amanda: Yeah.
Jimmy: If you were to offer a key takeaway to our listeners that we've spoken about, about everything we've spoken about today, what would that be?
Amanda: The key takeaway here is a suggestion. It would be to try not to, although very difficult, try not to assume you understand. Try not to assume that you know, you don't, how how things are done. Try not to assume what the problems are, what people want, what people need. The number one key takeaway is: ask. Ask your team. Assuming is, frankly, where a lot of the problems begin. It's just assuming. Even if you are watching them in the office every single day and you know how you know, you hear them on the phone and you know how they do their, you're still assuming cuz you're not him or her. Even though you're watching them, you're not really understanding how they do things and why they do things the way that they do things.
Jimmy: Yeah.
Amanda: You know, there's a whole They've already come up with the science on how they're going to do something and get it done in a timely manner. You won't see that, because they've already mastered how that happens, right? So, try not to assume. Ask.
Jimmy: I like that: ask and be prepared to listen and to hear what you might not be wanting to hear.
Amanda: Yes.
Jimmy: Ask and listen and be prepared to hear something you might not be happy here to hear, but it's the important truth.
Amanda: Right.
Jimmy: Yeah, no, that's really great. Amanda, um what's final question, what's one thing that you wish you had always done, but never got around to doing to make you a high performer?
Amanda: One thing that I always wish I had done, but I've never gotten around to. Oh my gosh! Do we have enough time for that? No, um I mean, there are so many things that I I still want to do. There's a and a lot of travelling that I would really love to do. You know, I have teams all over the world, so my goal ultimately at some point is to visit each, you know, team, and, you know, have some off-site fun. And, you know, it's not always just about work for us. You know, we're a very collegial team and um we genuinely really enjoy each other. And so I think that's something that I really want to do, and I will get to do, hopefully at some point in the near future. Yeah, I would say probably just kind of hanging with my team and meeting them, you know, sort of where they are, something that I would like to do.
Jimmy: Lovely. Thank you so so much for the insights. And Amanda A Russo, um it's been a real privilege to get to spend this time with you to learn a little bit more about the world of process consulting and how that can help businesses to be higher performers. Really appreciate your time. Thank you so much.
That's it for this week's episode of The High Performance Leader. If you enjoyed this episode, please drop a review on whichever platform you listened on. We really appreciate it, and it helps us to connect with new listeners. Also, if you haven't already, head to jimmyburroughes.com and download a copy of my latest best seller, Beat Burnout, Ignite Performance. It's the leader's playbook for building a high-performance culture, and is packed with practical action tips to get you started. Stay tuned for next week's episode of game-changing insights and ideas on The High Performance Leader.