How managers can lead authentically without oversharing

And that's an important understanding that leadership is not just from nine to five or from whatever to whatever or in this given space, environment, it's everywhere. You are leadership, whether you know it or not. At the end of the day, everywhere you go, you take your leadership with you.
Welcome back to the Ways of Working Podcast, your weekly dose of practical tips for senior leaders who are looking for a performance edge without burning themselves or their teams out.
Today, we are talking to CFO of Next Level University and human development guru, Kevin Palmieri. How are you, Kevin?
Kevin: I am doing well, my friend. I just want the audience to know I didn't suggest the guru part, that was Jimmy on his own, and I appreciate the kind words and the compliment.
Jimmy: You're most welcome. It's great to have you on the episode and we'll impact some of the journey that you've gone on, but the reason I mentioned the idea of being a human development guru was because there are many of our listeners who are potentially going to be struggling with how do I achieve that next level of performance, how do I achieve that next level of promotion, how do I get the results that I've traditionally got in my career, but don't necessarily see coming right now because things have shifted, and the opportunity that can be created through human development. So maybe tell us a little bit in your own words, what is human development and why is that important?
Kevin: In my own words, human development to me is elevating your internal state to ultimately elevate your external results. I think a lot of us are we're very results driven, and that's great. I think when you're results-driven, you tend to get results, but the problem is if you don't understand what your internal state, what your level of confidence, what your communication style, what your emotional intelligence, what your understanding of other humans is creating for you, it's very hard to get and reverse-engineer results. So I would say that, I think it's evolving holistically as a human being. When it comes to your relationships, not just with others, but with yourself. When it comes to health, mental, physical, emotional, spiritual. When it comes to your own understanding of money and how that works in your life, just elevating everything as a human being allows you to elevate other human beings to a similar degree.
Jimmy: Like it resonates so strongly for me and as a coach and mentor of senior leaders, one of the cliché phrases we often hear is what got you here won't get you there, and essentially what you're talking about is exactly the same thing, right? You might have been a high performer, you might have used a certain energetic frequency, you might have used a certain toolkit to get you to this level of your role, but to move to that transcendent next level, whether that's doer to manager, manager to leader, leader to influencer, influencer to enterprise leader, whatever that transition is, you've got to change yourself to change the results that you get.
Kevin: Yeah. And I think it's hard sometimes because we tend to measure the things that we see, and we don't necessarily understand how to measure the things that go into the things that we measure. So it's like what good is exercising everyday? It's really good. Could I explain exactly why you should do it? No. Can I explain how it makes you a better leader? Not really. But it's good, and that's a very hard understanding. It's like, why do I have to know emotional intelligence? Well, because you're working with other humans, and the degree to which you understand someone is the degree to which you can influence someone. It's the degree to which you can communicate with them, it's the degree to which you can predict. So it's very hard to understand that many of the things that you can't measure are going into the things that you're trying to measure and you just have to be willing to plant those seeds long enough to ultimately see what the outcome is. I know we were talking about planting seeds in our preamble, so I might as well bring it here too.
Jimmy: Go for it. Talk about seed planting.
Kevin: Oh, that's it. I mean most of the habits you have, you might not see the results for years, but you got to believe those results will come and they will be worth it, because if you don't, it won't make sense to keep doing them.
Jimmy: Absolutely. And the opposite presumably applies as well, so if you don't plant those seeds, then the divergence between you and somebody who has only becomes more magnified over time. And there's that proverb, isn't it, when's the best time to plant a tree, a 100 years ago. When's the second best time? Today. And so even if you're a leader who potentially hasn't planted some of those seeds earlier in your career around emotional intelligence, around trust building, around effective connection with humans, today is the day to start. It's not about resenting or regretting the fact that you haven't done it previously, because we all have an opportunity to build as we move forward.
Kevin: Yeah, of course. There I never really like this was all very new to me until I read Atomic Habits. And not even just from like It's a great book. Not even from the habit-building part, but the fact that when they were talking about the cycling team, and they said they taught them how to wash their hands effectively because you don't think about a gold medal getting taken away because someone is sick. Like oh, you were sick, so you couldn't compete at 100% that day, you couldn't push yourself that little bit more. That's what I'm talking about when I say you going to the gym, you having a a fulfilling heart-driven relationship with your partner, like that stuff is important as a leader if that's what you value, because it's going to allow you to lead better, it's going to allow you to show up as more of yourself, it's going to allow you to be emotionally stable and balanced. So, I just wanted to make sure I connected that.
Jimmy: I like what you're bringing in there around connecting with your partner, connected with your family, because one of the things we often see in the battle for authenticity as a leader is the separate personality for home and work, and that immediately puts an emotional strain and burden on you, but actually your partner and your family benefit from you being a better leader, and your team benefit from you being a better partner and parent because the skills are essentially the same, they're just applied in a different context. Have you had experience where you've seen leaders who maybe are super fun cool dad or mom at home, and then the opposite when they come to work, they're the hard-ass, difficult person, have you encountered that?
Kevin: I'm blessed where we have some really high-level, you know, C-level, CEO clients, and I've gotten to know them behind the scenes. And yeah, I know people that they're very happy-go-lucky in life, and they're very kind of fly-by-the-seat-of-their-pants when it comes to life, but the second they put on the suit, or the second they show up to the business meeting, they're very hardcore. And it's almost like there's too big of a delta between the two, so they don't really know how to balance it. It's almost like they're not either person, really. They're somewhere in the middle, they just don't know how to make that land for them in their real life, and that is why authenticity is so important.
You find, what I've seen is somebody who is not vulnerable at all in one place is usually way too vulnerable in another place. Somebody who isn't rigid enough in one place is usually way too rigid in the other place, because we're always trying to get the balance of control right in our lives. We're always trying to get balanced, and we always tend to find a way to do it. So, yeah, I've seen that a lot, but you have to first I think self-awareness, you're not going to get through an interview with me without talking about self-awareness. I think self-awareness is the thing, because if you don't understand yourself at a deep level, it's very hard to understand how you're showing up as a human and how you're leading, and I think a lot of us think, I lead the way I lead today because of what I've learned this month, when in reality, the way you lead is based on your past. It's based on your own junk more than anything, and if we don't figure out what's what we need to fix in order to lead our own lives, it's a challenge to lead others.
Jimmy: I'm very in alignment with that, and it reminds me of I don't know if you come across of some of the work that revolves around ego. And ego is the inner 'I must or I should', essentially, and when you meet leaders who act in a certain way, often it's because they believe they have to do that because 'I must or I should'. I must be the one who has all the answers. I should be the one who's solving all the problems. I must be the one who sets the example. And actually when we let go of some of that ego, and we start to embrace those around us, and we start to, as you say, like that authentic energy flow backwards and forwards between us and our team, us and our stakeholders, us and our family, us and our peers, that that connection is much more real.
But also, the ego is dampened because we realise that there are other people out there, but often that ego is built up by the battle scars that we've encountered along the way, or what our mum and dad said to us when we were 5 years old. You know, you must lead the family like I do, and I think there's a lot of baggage that many senior leaders have that they don't even realise they have, that as you say, it's not about what they've learned in the last month. It's about what they've picked up when they were kids and teenagers and junior leaders and the people they worked for.
How did you get into this, Kevin? Where did this story start for you?
Kevin: Who knows? Some days, I ask myself, Jimmy. For me, I when I graduated high school, I knew I didn't want to go to college. I didn't know what I wanted to do, but I was like, honestly, I cannot imagine another two, four, six, eight years of school. I cannot imagine that. So, I wanted to fight professionally in mixed martial arts for a while. That was one of the things I was training to do. So, I've always kind of wanted an alternate path than than what might be considered average, but what ended up happening to me is I found quote/unquote "success" in my mid-20s. I had the model girlfriend, the sports car, the body of my dreams, I had just won a bodybuilding show. I had all the things that I thought I wanted.
I was super insecure, not a confident human being, just not prepared for life, afraid of my own shadow, honestly, and my girlfriend at the time ended up leaving me. So when she left me, I kind of dipped my toe into self-improvement, you know, I had that realisation of, well, I'm at least 50% of all my relationships, and every single relationship I've ever had has failed in some way shape or form, not all extraordinarily, but they're no longer here, so what did I have to do with that? But then I it was quite easy to convince myself that if I made more money, most of my problems would go away.
So, that's what I convinced myself. I said, all right, I'm going to make as much money as possible, and life will be easy, and, you know, it will be good. So, at the time, I was working in the industry of weatherization, so it was my job to go into buildings and make them more energy efficient. We worked predominantly on state or government-owned buildings, so I was making $60 to $120 an hour depending on where I was and and what I was doing, but it took a lot of travel and that was a whole thing. So, I ended up making six figures at 26 with no college degree, opened my final pay stub with an expectation that I was going to heal myself, my inner stuff, somehow it got worse. And I realized that for most of my life, especially that year, I had lived unconsciously. The opposite of unconscious is hyperconscious, started a podcast called The Hyper Conscious Podcast, fell in love with podcasting, fell out of love with my job, but had to keep traveling, had to keep making money, had to keep paying the bills, and eventually, I was sitting on the edge of a bed contemplating suicide because I was so miserable, so out of alignment, so hopeless, so helpless, I just felt like I was no longer in control of my life, and ended up leaving that in 2018, and have been a full-time podcaster since.
Jimmy: Wow. A really moving story and sounds like, you know, full of highs and lows. When you look back at so much of that resonates with me, but when you look back at some of those critical moments or critical decision points that you went through in the good job, good lifestyle, good career, ostensibly all the trappings of success, what were some of those key moments for you where you realised this wasn't what it was all about for you?
Kevin: I vividly remember understanding the difference between happiness and fulfillment. That, for me, was this huge pivot of people say money doesn't buy happiness, I disagree. I think money can buy you momentary bouts of happiness, right? If I buy a $200,000 car, I'm probably going to be happier in that than a $20,000 car. Right? That's just I mean I'm going to get a dopamine hit, and I'm going to get all the feel good drugs, right? So that probably is accurate. What money can't buy you is sustainable fulfillment. And I think when I started to understand that, it was I am more fulfilled on a mission that I will never accomplish than I ever was every time I got a paycheck and said, wow, I made this, I made this, I made this. That was very instrumental in my understanding, because in a way, it's almost like you can't understand that until you understand that.
Even if you're listening right now, you might hear me say that and say, that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I understand. Trust me, I do. I understand it sounds crazy, I do. But that was a very important understanding for me. And I think one of the other things was, I always want to know more about myself even if it sucks. Like even if what I'm going to learn about myself is going to hurt me, it will help me eventually, and I have that belief. So, I remember really sitting down and saying, wow, you are This is a great story. My business partner and I were in California at a mansion interviewing somebody for our podcast. And we interviewed him in his movie theater at his house. After the interview, he takes us out back to the pool area, and he wants to cook us dinner. So he rolls out this Benihana-style grill, rolls it out of his kitchen, and he's cheffing up some chicken and rice or whatever it was. And after that, him and my business partner were talking about business. And my business partner went to one of the top technical schools in the world, Master's in business, just genius, he's a genius.
And I remember having this moment of, I am not smart enough. I cannot hang in this conversation. I should be living the time of my life right now, and this is miserable, and I'm insecure, and I feel bad. I went to Alan, and I told him, Alan's my business partner, said, "Hey man, I don't think I'm smart enough." I didn't want to have that conversation, that sucked, that was terrible. But he said, "Well, what if you're just not yet? Like what if you just haven't studied the right stuff yet?" That was a very important day for me because here's the thing, as a leader, it's not my fault that Alan and our podcast guest knew more than me. It's not I shouldn't villainize them for making me feel a certain way. I'm in control of what I'm taking in in regards to my knowledge. That level of self-awareness, it just allows you to lead from a place of power, not scarcity. So that was very impactful for me, just to understand and keep understanding myself at a deep level. That's probably the best thing that I ever did, the most powerful thing I ever did.
Jimmy: I love that. Thank you for sharing it, as well. It makes me think of one of the chapters in the book that we've got coming out, which is the difference between scarcity and abundance in relation to building a high-performance culture, and you've touched on a beautiful example. You know, the scarcity response that you could potentially have there was like, "I'm not enough. I'm not smart enough, I'm not rich enough, I'm not successful enough, I'm not {dot dot dot} enough." Or the other opportunity is to look at it and go, "I'm surrounded by these people I can learn from. Right. They're like they're pouring into my cup of knowledge and experience and business acumen and this is great." It's not necessarily the problems that we encounter. It's the way that we deal with them that make the biggest difference to our happiness of and our fulfillment, as you say.
Kevin: 100%.
Jimmy: I love that idea, as well, around money. To me, money gives you more freedom to maybe take more time to make a choice or gives you more options to choose from, but also money can create complexity. Did you find when you stepped out of the high-earning lifestyle and started becoming a full-time podcaster, you know, obviously you had to build up full-time podcasting into a business, Yeah. did you find that you were more fulfilled doing what you were doing? What was the difference that was happening in your mind?
Kevin: I will never forget the day that I left my job. I will never forget the weight that was lifted off my shoulders. I will never forget that. Now, I will also never forget the new weight that was put on my shoulders, because obviously, you know, you don't really get one without the other. But yeah, I remember I moved in with my best friend, who's a real estate investor, and he's like, "Hey man, I'm buying a two-family, top and bottom. You and I can live in the bottom. If you want to help me renovate the top, 500 bucks a month rent. It'll be awesome." "Yeah, man, I'm in. Awesome. Let's do this. Let's chase our dreams together."
One day he was out, and I was walking around the kitchen, and I remember I had no clients, nobody cared about us as podcasters, I was single as you can be, not I was in a rough place. But I remember walking around the kitchen, and for the first time in my life, I actually felt fulfilled. I was like, oh, my goodness, I actually understand this now. It's not about everything, it's about the one thing. It's about the journey. It's about the journey of the stuff that I most likely will never have. I'm never going to get an award that says, you're the top, you're the best podcaster ever. No, that's not going to happen, most likely. But what must I become in order to try to accomplish that? It's like if you're going to climb a mountain, buying a new pick, and buying new boots, and buying a new jacket, that all might make you feel happy. Oh, my god, look at this jacket, this is a nice jacket.
What is fulfilling, though, is trekking out, and saying, all right, for the next month, we are on this hike, and there's going to be rough weather, and it's going to be windy, and we're not going to sleep, and we're going to be hungry, being thirsty, whatever it is, that's fulfilling. Chasing that goal, like trying to accomplish that, that purpose, right? We have a purpose here. That's fulfilling. So when it really hit me that we're actually trying to do something greater than we can in a way, that's when I really started to understand, okay, that for me is the recognition of fulfillment. And here's the other thing too. I think that we assume that fulfillment feels good. From my experience at least, it doesn't always in the moment. So a really hard day is fulfilling. When you get to the end of the day and you're grateful you did it, often times those are the things that fulfill you. You might not want to do them in the moment, but when you get to the end of the day and you're grateful you did, that often times is a good recognition of fulfillment because think of it. You can watch Netflix for eight hours, you get to the end of the day and say, ah, wow, I really wish I didn't do that. Okay, that's probably because you thought it was going to make you happy, and you over-poured that cup unfortunately.
Jimmy: I see so many synergies between the things we both talk about. We have a concept we talk about in the book called Exploration, which is essentially going a little bit outside your comfort zone and trying something new, and that's where growth happens. And when growth happens, often you graze your knees, or you stumble, or you have some issues, and it's those moments that make the best stories. It's those moments that give you the development as a leader and as the the leader of a team that you can look back on and build your experience. And I love that analogy of going on a trek, because it's not necessarily the days when I mean, of course, there'll be some amazing views on that trek, and of course there'll be some things that you see, but it'll be the moment where somebody nearly fell off a cliff, or somebody twisted an ankle and you had to carry them out. They're the stories, right? They're the things that that really make a difference.
And when you're a leader who's going through tough times, which as will probably resonate with many of our leaders, you know, it's been a really tough few years in business. Actually, there's some great stories in there that instead of seeing this as a horrendous crisis you've had to get through, actually it's that moment of reflection where you go, "Well, how have I learned and grown as a leader? How has my team overcome some of these things? How do we see this in a more abundant way?" Because we've been on this journey of exploration through a COVID crisis, through a recession, through potentially a war with Russia and Ukraine going on, which has affected supply chains, and Brexit, and how have we learned and grown through that? And that's truly human development, right?
Kevin: Yeah. You can take a lesson from anything. I remember, we did a podcast episode on this. People ask me all the time, like, how do you come up with seven episodes a week? It's like, I don't, really. I just go live life and then I try to find parallels between life and self-improvement, really. I went to Target. This was around Christmas time, and my wife made an order, I was going to the gym, Target's right down the street. Sure, I'll swing in and grab it, no stress. I go there, and there is this guy behind the counter and I can tell he's overwhelmed. I mean, it's Target, Christmas time, of course you're overwhelmed. And I was like, "Yeah, order for Kevin," and he goes and gets it. And he comes back and it was this very weird exchange where like part of his clipboard got caught in one of my bags and like I was like holding his hand and we were trying to exchange the bags and he's like, "Dude, I got to put them down, is that all right?" I was like, "Yeah, man, you're good." That right there is a leadership situation.
How do you lead in every situation? Not just with the people who, you know, are on your team or the people that you're responsible for paying, how do you lead when somebody messes up your coffee order? Because that's the same way you're going to lead in the office. That I have that belief of every situation, every opportunity, every interaction, every success or every failure is a leadership moment, and the way you show up behind the scenes is the way eventually you will show up in front of the scenes. 100 million percent, we have so many examples of that through the last 10 years of people who we thought were one type of person, ended up being a different. I think that's why, just like self-improvement, just like education, just like learning, leadership is a lifetime activity. Lifetime, because everyday you're meeting new people and you have new opportunities to lead a more effective way. So I don't know if that has anything to do with what we're talking about, but I wanted to share that story because we were just talk yeah, it does, but I think that's important, that's an important understanding that leadership is not just from nine to five or from whatever to whatever or in this given space, environment, it's everywhere. You are leadership, whether you know it or not. At the end of the day, everywhere you go, you take your leadership with you.
Jimmy: And and I mean that's essentially brought us back full circle to where we were at when we were talking about the difference between being a leader at home and being a leader in the office, right? It's that It is all of you, all the time. And it doesn't necessarily relate to your job title. I mean, most of our listeners are senior leaders already in organisations, but if you're listening online and are thinking essentially, well, that doesn't apply to me because I'm not a senior leader, as Kevin just said, everybody's a leader if they want to be. You can be a leader in your church group, you can be a leader in your community, you can be a leader of a sports team, you can be a leader of your choir, and you can be a leader in the boardroom.
Kevin: Even if you don't want to be, you are. Right? I think that's the hard part is like no matter what, if you walk through life in any way, shape, or form and you impact other people, I think you are a leader, even if you don't want to be, because somebody's leading that situation, right? If you go out and you order coffee, you might be the leader in that moment. So, yeah, I I think it's one of those things where you just get to decide how committed do you want to be to it.
Jimmy: So why human development and not leadership development, personal development, professional development? What was it about the human aspect that was really fascinating to you?
Kevin: I think when we think of, like, leadership development or professional development, it is a suggestion of, how do we develop others? That's kind of what it it suggests is like, well, you know, you're going to be a better leader for others. Well, being a better human starts with you. So that's what it is for me. It's at the end of the day, you can impact and you can influence humans, but you can't necessarily change them. You can change yourself, you can 100% change yourself because you're in control of that. I think for me, it was the potential. It was the potential that I can say, Jimmy, these are the five things you should be doing, my friend. These are the five things you should be doing, and you could do them all better. Or, I can get better to the point where Jimmy looks at me and says, "Wow, I I'd like to get there. Like, I'd like to get there."
Think of it this way. You and I were talking about podcasting before, and you and I have talked about podcasting, and you're like, "Yeah, I'm already doing some of the stuff that you told me." That's not because I told you to do it, it's because you value who I am, because I've worked so hard on what I'm doing that you say, "Well, he's worked so hard on it, and it's worked for him, let me give that a try." So that comes from the human first. That's For me, I think it's the most potential. It creates the most potential for change, and it has the most opportunity attached to it. That's why it it really resonated with me.
Jimmy: I love that. And it resonates exactly across to the idea of, if I'm looking for that performance edge that's going to help me get better results in my team, that's going to help me get better the the promotion I want, that maybe ever has been eluding me, or to pull myself back from the brink of burnout, actually, it starts inside me before I start to wonder about how can I push my team harder, or rethink the strategy, or go and do an away day. Actually, it starts with working on me first. I really like that.
If you were to give our listeners one piece of advice for where to start, if I want to go down this journey of human development, what should I do? Where should I start? How can I approach it from step one? Because I'm a busy senior leader, I can've got a lot of things going on, I barely get time to sleep. How can I start focusing on developing myself?
Kevin: Yeah, it's a great question. That's the thing, like, what are your current habits? It might seem like it's serving us to say, I'm so And again, I understand, I empathize with that. I'm so busy that I don't have time to do blank, blank, blank, and blank, but there's many things that we do that multiply time, and there's other things that we do that divide time. What can you focus on that multiplies time? You know, walking on the treadmill for 15 minutes in the morning while you're listening to an audio book, checking your emails. You're doing three things in 15 minutes, right? So that, I would start with like what you're If you're listening, you're a high achiever, you're a high performer. You don't need me to say, you know, "Hey, you're doing enough, you're going to be fine." You need somebody to come and say, "Look, I know sometimes we get in our own way and I know you're busy, I know you are, but are you getting busy doing the things that you should be doing for you also?" I'm not saying that's all you should do because then the business might burn to the ground. It's that understanding of, I don't believe there's any such thing as balance. I think it's a juggling act at all times. Right now, I'm with Jimmy. I am not working on my health, unless I have like a pedal under the desk, like a pedal bike, which I could do, right? But I'm not doing that. So right now, my health is not being built, but my relationship with Jimmy is and my business is, because you're hearing me. All right. Two out of three. Cool.
I would sit down and if you were to draw out where is your juggling act currently? Is it wealth first, then relationships, and then health? Okay, cool. Check into that. And then I would just commit to trying 15 minutes of a new habit. 10 minutes, five minutes, whatever is sustainable for you to start, because you don't have to get to the top of the mountain. You just have to start the climb, you have to start the trek. I think that would be very beneficial.
Jimmy: Go plant the seed.
Kevin: Right. And here Plant the seed, perfect. This is one other thing I'd say too, and again, I know this is probably not what most people want to hear, it's probably worth seeking a therapist or seeking a counselor, because there is a ton of that inner stuff that's affecting your leadership. My business partner just started going to therapy, and he's become a better leader. You better believe, because he understands why he leads in the way he does. Now, I know that's hard and that can be triggering and if there's ego involved, it's like, I don't need that. I completely understand. I've been there myself. But I think you learning about yourself is the most important lesson you can learn. So anybody you can have in your corner who could help you do that. Is it an hour a week? Yes. Is that hour a week going to help you be a better leader? Yes. It the ROI on that is there if you're open to it.
Jimmy: You say counsellor, therapist, I would say coach or mentor, same thing. It's that person who can hold a mirror up at the way you, because we all we all essentially do our best. I don't know many people who get to, you know, the C-suite, the GM level, who aren't going to work everyday to do their best. So you're doing your best within the confines of what you know is the best, but when somebody holds a mirror up to some of the things that might be getting in the way of you being your best or achieving your best, actually it can be really useful. I agree with you completely, the idea of having some support in your corner, and this isn't about remedial action, this is about good to great action, this is about, you know, you're an Olympic athlete, you're a star performer, you're a top sports team, they all have coaches, mentors, counsellors, therapists, physios, rehabs, they all have people to support them in the pursuit of excellence. Why would you not do that as a senior leader? Why would you not do that as somebody who's struggling with burnout? Why would you not do that as somebody who's planting seeds for the future, when you might not even know which ones you should be planting?
Kevin: You're not broken, you don't need to be fixed. That, like that understanding, you're not broken, you don't need to be fixed. You're a high-performing piece of machinery that just needs to be honed, and directed, and shined up, and maintained, and serviced. Like that, I think that mindset, you're not filling voids necessarily. Like you're just creating more opportunity and unlocking pieces of you that you didn't know were locked.
Jimmy: Absolutely. And believing that you are entitled to be next to that grill with that millionaire, learning from the people around you, which is a fascinating place to be, absolutely.
Kevin, how can people get in touch with you, connect with you, and learn more about you?
Kevin: Yeah. So we have a podcast called Next Level University. We do seven episodes a week, it's always free. It's on all the podcast platforms as well as YouTube. So if you want to check that out, you'll either like us or you'll get sick of us very quickly, but that's one way we figure out who likes us. And then if you want to reach out to me, my email is [email protected]. Happy to to hear any feedback, answer any questions, comments, concerns. I am there for it.
Jimmy: Amazing. Kevin, thank you so much for joining us with not only, um, mountains of wisdom, but also a real level of human awareness that I think brings a real authenticity to what you and and your business does. Really appreciate it. Thanks for coming along.
Kevin: I appreciate it. Thank you.
Jimmy: Amazing. And if you enjoyed this podcast, please take a moment to follow or subscribe and drop us a rating or review and on whatever platform you listened on. It helps others to know what you think, and connect others with the messages that we share. If you have any comments or feedback, please reach out to Kevin or I on Instagram, LinkedIn, or via email. We answer all messages, so don't hesitate to reach out. Take care, see you on the next episode.
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