How managers get better results from external recruiters

Tim: The recruitment process to be as smooth as it can be, the people that are representing an employer need to be have as much time dedicated to that particular client as possible. So, they need to really understand the nuts and bolts of the business. They need to understand the personalities that are in the business.
Jimmy: Hello, and welcome back to this week's episode of the Ways of Working podcast, your weekly dose of practical tips for leaders who are trying to gain that high-performance edge without burning themselves or their teams out. Now, before you put down your phone or click away from this window, make sure you hit follow or subscribe on your preferred platform of choice to make sure you don't miss any future episodes of the Ways of Working podcast with our incredible experts and guests.
Hello, and welcome back to this week's episode of the Ways of Working podcast. And I am joined by Tim Gear-Evans, who is the founder of Natiro. Now, having spent a number of years working in the world of search recruitment, Tim has specialised in working in a few verticals, focusing on strategies, operations and commercial finance requirements for small- to medium-enterprises, owner-managed businesses. He set the business up a few years ago and has gone from strength to strength. We're going to hear a little bit about that story today, and also some of the challenges that you might be facing in the recruitment industry. We've got an expert on hand to help you out. Tim, welcome to the show. How are you?
Tim: Thanks, Jimmy. It's nice to nice to be here. Thank you for having me. I am very well.
Jimmy: Excellent. Good to have you with us, and I know this is going to be a really useful conversation, not least because it seems everybody I'm talking to at the moment is struggling with talent and finding the right people. And so, from your experience, having been in the industry for a good while now, what is the big challenge with recruitment that we all seem to be experiencing? What's going on?
Tim: Uh I mean, I think the world has changed so dramatically over the last few years. What we're What we're seeing is that the majority of people have made their own life decisions, predominantly around what they now want to do as opposed to what they feel they were obliged to do over the years. And so, we've had a real drain of talent through lots of different industries. Uh and And people have retrained and gone off and done other other things. I think those are some of the issues. I think the the role of the workplace is is massively influencing people's decisions as to where they want to go. And there's a there's a I don't know. There's a general sense of kind of entitlement around around certain positions and certain entry points into the market at the moment. So, there's a whole host of things, I think, that are um are influencing people's decisions over what they want their careers to be. Um and I don't know whether employers have quite got there yet, in terms of what their offering should be to these people.
Jimmy: That's fascinating. What What are you seeing, in particular, around the the trends or uh the patterns in that entitlement versus what businesses are prepared to offer? Where is the big gaps?
Tim: Well, I mean, I think the the the most obvious one is remote working, hybrid working, going back to the office. I mean, it's probably really well documented now. And different firms, different industries, are taking different uh approaches with it. But, you know, there there is a there is a there is a sense that employees are kind of turning around to their their their bosses and saying, "I don't I'll tell you where I want to work, not the other way around, thanks." Um which is changing. And you're seeing that, you know, you're seeing businesses strike back now a little bit, and saying, "Well, actually, do you know what? We We We want you in." Um and the reasons behind that the there's there's plenty of different kind of opinions on that, but um I think that's probably the most well-documented um out of out of out of probably a long list of things.
Jimmy: Absolutely. I had a fascinating conversation with Christopher Lind from He's the chief learning officer at Len- ChenMed, and he was talking all about how the the the the remote work The fear of remote work is driving the drive back to work, which is kind of at odds with what the employees want from work. And so, we've got this challenge for them to and and for most industries to to be able to find and keep the right people. And so, we end up in this situation where people have departed businesses, there's gaps, they need to be replaced, and there's not a whole lot of available applications. And so, they need to suddenly Companies suddenly need to go out and our leaders, our listeners, need to go out and start finding people using other resources. So, they might need to engage with an agency. And from your experience, you often end up working with organizations who've got a pretty negative perception of the agency recruiter. Is that right?
Tim: Uh, yeah. I mean, I I think I think it's fair to say that probably everyone in the world's got a bad story to tell about recruitment somewhere along the line. Um, it's a and it's a shame, I think. I think the the there is the vast majority of recruiters out there that want to do a good job um and do things in the right way, uh but there is, you know, everyone loves a bad news story, right? And you'll tell people more often than not if you've if you've had a bad experience than you will a good one. Um, and so there, you know, and but there are some shockers. There are some really poor practices out there still. Um, and and then and then it comes down to, you know, whether whether those uh employers are willing to kind of uh go more into what I what I like to think of as a partnership with a with a with a recruitment agency or a firm to kind of um really allow them to to become part of an external part of their business and kind of represent them positively in the marketplace and and and be a a clear, kind of, uh promoter of their business.
Jimmy: I think that's so right. You know, there's a lot of organizations, and and I was guilty when I was a GM, of trying to keep sort of agencies outside at arm's length because it was too much time to brief them and too much time to work with them, and very little return on investment. The market has changed. The market has shifted. We now need to to partner with trusted agency providers. Can you talk to us? Uh, one of the things that you mentioned in our previous conversation was the importance of that client-candidate-consultant relationship. Can you unpack that a little bit for us and just talk through what does that look like in a in a successful high performance team versus teams that are maybe struggling to get bums on seats?
Tim: For me, it's one of the fundamental reasons I started Natiro. Um, you know, I I believe that uh for the for the kind of um the recruitment process to be as smooth as it can be, the people that are representing an employer need to be uh have as much time dedicated to that particular client as possible. So, they need to really understand the nuts and bolts of the business. They need to understand the personalities that are in the business, uh what what the drivers are for the the hire, you know. And and I'm not talking about sitting there and taking a job brief and sort of like saying, "Look, we need this person to fill this this particular vacancy." This is This is bigger than that. This is This is about really getting into the kind of the the whats and the whys and the the ifs of why this business is exists, really, um so that when they do go to market, that that that you've got a much better more more, kind of, holistic view of that business to be able to represent it in the right way. Um, and and, you know, and likewise, on the other side of that, with candidates, you you need, you know, consultants need to be able to spend the time really getting to understand um what a candidate's drivers are. You know, what what's What drives them? What What Why do they want to get up and go to work every day? Because [clears throat] CVs, in my in my opinion, are a pretty outdated ways of of operating. You know, I I You can write a CV to say whatever it needs to say for a job interview, or a specific role, um and you're not you're not getting the person. So, this is all about relationships. So, you know, it being an employer is all about relationships. Being being a being an employee is all about relationships. Um, I think one of the one of the the biggest challenges that employers and employees, potential employees, have at present, is the the speed of that recruiting process is so fast, um and is, you know, it's it's akin to going and looking at a new house, and you know, the housing market is moving so quickly that you you get 10 minutes to look look around the place before you have to make a decision on the biggest investment in your life. And it's a it's a similar story with with recruitment. You know, you've got you've got a 45-minute, hour window with this employ- potential employer, um and and how on earth is anyone going to know whether that's a good fit? So, you know, my my my key drivers for Natiro are that we remove as many barriers as possible for our consultants to um spend as much time as they can with candidates uh and with clients. Um, and also, that the recruitment process itself is is um is measured in its approach, in its speed and tempo. Um, sometimes means, you know, actually, look, let's pump the brakes and and and go a little bit slower uh just to ensure that we get the quality.
Jimmy: I think there's a real merit What I was hearing there is is what we do as a consulting business, which is the business partner model versus the service provider model. So, often your hiring manager is like, "Just go out and find me somebody and get me somebody and get them in the door as quick as you can," versus, "Hell, let's just, as you say, let's pump the brakes. Let's really consider: is this even the right role to be recruiting? Is What are you really looking for? What's not going to work for you?" And and there's so many questions that can be asked at this stage. Yeah. What What do you think stops leaders investing that time? I mean, obviously, it is time, but what what do you think gets in the way? And how do you overcome that?
Tim: Yeah. I mean, that's a great question. How to overcome it first? Um Uh you know, you've you've got to be credible and you've got to be trusted. Um, the you need you need your clients to to care what you say. Um, and I have uh You know, I've done myself out of a few roles over the years by saying to people, "Look, this isn't Your strategy is not right here. You don't want to be doing this. This isn't the right time, or this isn't the right role, uh or you know, you might have the right person coming in here, but they're going they're they're going to be too big for this role in 12 months' time, or or not big enough in 12 months' time. Um, so you know, it it's a good person, but it's not going it's not going to work for your long-term strategy." So, and that that only comes by really getting where the business wants to go um and understanding it. So, um you know, though how to over- how to overcome it is time served. I I think you you you need to take the time to build those relationships. And again, that's why I don't think, you know, recruitment isn't a commodity is a commodity, but shouldn't be a commodity. It shouldn't be traded in bums on seats, and that's Yeah, that's probably where agency recruitment come comes in uh and kind of devalues the market a little bit, in my opinion, is that there's there's too much of a a race to the bottom. There's too many people kind of um throwing candidates uh everything uh with the hope that something sticks, because it's about fee generation. It's not it's not the wrong it's the wrong driver. It's not about It's not about the people. It's not about the relationships. It's not about the outcome for the client. It's about fee generation, which is just that and that, you know, that really struggle That's a real struggle for me in in the marketplace, because it should be so much more than that. It should be a really positive experience for for everyone that's involved.
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You know, it's fascinating. We maybe we should have renamed our episode "Hire the person, not the commission" versus "Hire the person, not the position". Um, but it it I I completely agree with having been an agency recruiter and run internal talent teams, I I fully understand. Sometimes, there are a lot of less than average recruiters out there. If I'm a leader who is wanting to partner with a reputable agency who wants a, as you say, a business partner relationship versus a a service provider relationship who's not just going to spray and pray candidates at me, how do I go about differentiating the good from the bad? What What do I look for? What should I be asking of my potential agency partners?
Tim: Gosh, that's a really good question, a really hard one to answer. Um, for I think for one reason, it's the hard like it's a really hard one to answer because I think um, you know, recruitment generally is is seen as a sales job, um and so, whoever is on the other end is typically trying to sell to you. Um, and therefore, they're going to tell you what you want to hear. So, it doesn't matter what questions you're going to ask. If you unless unless you've got, you know, you're looking at the reputation of the firm and you're you're able to kind of you know, I I don't know, Glassdoor might be an interesting place to kind of do some sense-checking on agencies and see what kind of experience I mean, I know that they've been a real crackdown on those kind of things lately, and and actually some NDAs and things being signed to to stop people leaving bad reviews on Glass Glassdoor. I mean, I surely that's the whole point of it. It's kind of the good and the bad and the ugly. So, yeah, I mean, it's a really difficult one. I don't think there is a a set kind of recipe for people to kind of say, "This is what we should be looking for." I mean, I think it for me, again, it comes down to time served and being able to kind of be credible over a period of time. I don't anticipate working with a new introduction or a new client introduction f- for a long time, because I, you know, I'd much rather take uh be there for the long-term, and kind of take my time to get to know people, and and really get the business uh before I'd even remotely kind of go, "Well, do you know what? I think I get it. Is this what" You know, I'll repeat back to them, "This Is this what you're saying?" And it is the consultative approach. It's not just, "Can you please give me a job description, and and I'll Yeah, I've got some people for that." That's not it. It's challenging. It's probing. It's asking questions. And, and at that point in time, hopefully that the the, kind of, the client side of the business will anticipate and and kind of feel that there is a there's a mutual understanding of of what's being required of them.
Jimmy: I completely agree. And if I think back to to my agency days and and also working with some of the really recruitment really trusted recruitment partners that I've I've partnered with over the years, they almost have a perspective that you don't have, as a senior leader in an organization. You're You're in your world and, yes, you might have an enterprise leadership view or you might have a global leadership view, but people like you are working with multiple organizations and seeing the patterns in the market. And and that's something for us to tap into, right? It's to ask those questions. Even if there's no immediate gain for the recruiter, a good recruiter is going to be able to share some of those data points with you.
Tim: Yeah. I Yeah, completely agree. I mean, there's there's so many conversations and insights tied up within uh within a good consultant consultative, kind of, approach from an agency or a exec search firm whereby, yeah, businesses should be should be keen to speak to these people, because if you've got that kind of trusted partnership and you've you've got the right people coming in to see you, and and giving you insights onto the wider market and what your competitors are doing, what And it's free. You're like, "Well, yeah, of course I'd like to come and speak to you." I mean, you You know, don't expect them to give everything away, but there there there'll be there'll be definitely trends and insights into what's happening elsewhere. And that is something that I, you know, do do find is being asked of me more and more often. It's kind of, "What are you seeing? What are you seeing in the market? Why is that happening? What What are the reasons that they these guys are disappearing? Where are they going? What, you know, what's the feedback from candidates as to who's leaving the industry, for example?"
Jimmy: Mm. Very interesting. And do you find that often your clients become your candidates, as well?
Tim: Uh, yeah, yeah. Over time, I mean, it's normally the other way around. You'd normally have a candidate, and you look after them for a long period of time and and as they go on their career journey, you end up um they end up being hiring managers and and uh um and because you've looked after them, because they trust you, because you've got this ongoing relationship. And it can span, you know, I know lots of people that have got these relationships that have spanned decades um, and they become close friends. You know, this isn't this isn't about, "Yeah, look, I've got your job. Go on. Here Off you go. I've got your job." This is about actual connections and and people growing those relationships. So, candidates do become clients. And um, yeah, I guess at times clients automatically become candidates when when it's time for a new venture.
Jimmy: Absolutely. Now, that's really interesting. I want to go back to that that concept again of the person before the position. And common mistakes that you see made, well, in in teams by leaders when they're out to recruit and the nor- as you say, the normal response is, "Here's a position description, go find me someone." Yep. What are some of the common mistakes that you can share on with our listeners that and some recommendations for things they could do a little bit better when they're thinking about the person they want to recruit versus just the job, filling a bum on a seat?
Tim: Yeah, I mean, you know, I I literally I had this conversation this week with a with a client of ours. They are very, very driven by values um and uh and the culture of the business. Yet, it felt like for years they've been doing that off guttural instinct. And so, you know, one of one of the key things, especially the higher up the organization you go, where these positions typically cost you a lot more money if you get get them wrong, they will uh have bigger impacts and ripples through the business if you get them wrong. So, again, it's it's that kind of taking it taking your time to get it get the right person the first time. And so, using psychometric assessments can be really good. So, my You know, my recommendation to them the other day was, "Look, let's get let's get your entire partnership kind of to do some psychometric um assessment, and look at the commonalities. Look at the traits within the business at the moment whereby you're seeing you're seeing what what runs through the business. Because then, when you take that to market and you say, 'Right, we've got this position.' Yeah, great. We've got a list of responsibilities and roles that that people need to do. That's fantastic. You've got You've got a long list of people that can do that that. But are they going to upset the apple cart? Are they going to play nicely with everybody else? Are they Or, do you know, you might want them to play upset the apple cart. You might feel that there's there's too too many people on board and pulling in the same direction, and you need some challenge within the business." So, you know, you can use those tools to be a lot more kind of analytical, and and look at something that might not come out over a series of interviews, even though you do your best to screen as as best possible. But I I think it's It is about, you know, it is about taking the time to find the right people at the right time, and using the tools that are available, which isn't just an interview. Because there's, you know, there is another challenge that you're only your interview is only going to be as good as the person that's conducting it, you know, the person that's asking the questions, because there's some bad hiring managers out there that that don't get it uh or or looking for the wrong things. So, they'll tick boxes on a CV, and you'll go, "Great. This is This is fantastic." But actually, they're not looking at the personalities, and how that's going to impact the rest of the the business.
Jimmy: I heard so many gems in there, Tim. The uh going backwards through what you said, there's so many bad hiring managers out there, I would add who think they're great hiring managers, who think they're good interviewers because, let's face it, how often do most how often do most of us hire? Maybe couple of times a year, if we're doing a restructure, greater numbers, but it's not a daily practice skill like an agency partner or a recruitment partner might have. It's a once in a while. You dust off the old interview skills and you bring out your cliche questions, right?
Tim: Yeah. "Where are you going to be in five years' time?" Right?
Jimmy: Yeah. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. "What What What value are you going to add to this role?" Um, so I think that that's a key one is is leaning on a strong recruitment partner, agency partner, who can who can maybe advise some of the questions you should be asking and coach you through that, and being vulnerable and open to that coaching. I love that idea of also assessing the climate inside the business to really understand your culture before you go outside the business. And and I've I've seen this happen many times. I really like that idea of, well, what's the dynamic of our team and what's going to fit, because either we want somebody who's exactly like our team so they fit, or we want somebody who's really different from our team because we're doing a diversity play and we're trying to become a more diverse culture. And then, are we prepared for those people to settle into the business, because they're going to be different to all of us? So, I've seen this in professional services quite frequently when I work in a consulting capacity, "Oh, we want to get a more diverse workforce, and we're going to hire, you know, women and people from different ethnicities and people from the rainbow community." And then we wonder why they don't stay, because we're not ready for them. We're not geared up for them. So, the the questions, I think, that you can add value there are immense. It's There's some fascinating insights.
Tim: Yeah. I mean, that that's an interesting one, the professional services industry. I mean, it it is progressing and there are some great examples of businesses that are moving forward in the right direction. But a lot of them are still seen as old boys' clubs, you know, and they're they're still very very, you know, set up to be around um uh not being inclusive places of working. And actually, when they say, "Well, we we must be more inclusive," they just get it wrong, because they're doing it for the wrong drivers and they're doing it in the wrong way. So, the intent's right, but the the application is is is left wanting.
Jimmy: Absolutely fascinating. And one of the things I know from having been a busy leader in an organization is sometimes you don't even know where to get access to the data, the information, the market dynamics, what's going on, and hear from leading thinkers. What type of things could I be looking for? And what potentially do you have available that people can reach out and just tap into the the pulse of what's going on in the market right now and hear from leading thinkers and speakers?
Tim: Yeah, absolutely. I I think you're right. Um, I think there's a there's a danger whereby you've got either an overload of information um or it's not the greatest quality information, or it's not pertinent to to you and your business. So, um, you know, one of the things that we have been uh have started introducing is doing uh quite intimate round-table events. So, whereby we get um we get industry leaders together uh and discuss uh whatever topic that might be that we've that we've heard. I mean, this is This is where it comes into its own from my perspective, is that uh the number of conversations we have with different people, you end up understanding where these common threads are and what the what the questions people are asking you. Um, and you know, one of the one of the biggest ones we're hearing from uh lawyers and and solicitors and accountants at the moment is uh is around uh the return to work. Um, so we've got a we've got a round-table coming up in in September which will be geared specifically to that, which is going to get, you know, 30 or so um managing partners of of these kind of law firms and things together um to discuss this, and and make it really really valuable for them, because they're hearing from their peers. It's not about somebody preaching to them. This is about them being in a room, having a having their own voice heard, um sharing their experiences, uh and and and listening to what else is what other experiences and what other issues and challenges other firms are finding in in that marketplace. So, those kind of things, I think, are add real value. Um, so I would certainly recommend that people look out for um for those type of events on on Eventbrite, places like that, where you've got uh where you've got, you know, executive search businesses, in particular, will like to do this, they will like to add value. Um, and they're usually are free to attend for people, or or maybe it's minimal minimal ticket prices to kind of come along and actually engage with your peer group for uh a couple of hours, um which is which is very rare. I mean, how many times do you see events where you can get like the leaders of your different businesses together um over a over a breakfast or a lunch, um and and glean some really useful information about what's going on in the market and and where you should be going in the future?
Jimmy: I think that's such a valuable resource that a lot of people aren't tapping into because they're too busy or they've got so many other priorities. But it's that choosing the right thing to do. And as you say, we've noticed the same thing with with the Wow Global Masterminds. We have leaders coming in talking about leadership topics. And it's just them. And one of the biggest revelations was, "Oh, my god, you're struggling with this too? And how are we going to deal with this? Like, what are you doing to deal with it? And here's some of the stuff that we've been doing to deal with it." And sharing that wisdom in a Chatham House rules environment where, you know, industry or firm is not necessarily taken back to um you know, IP is not being stolen, should I say? But I like that idea of also being in a smaller group versus going to a conference or going to a networking event, which might be 200 to 20,000 people. Some of the ones in Vegas are even bigger than that. 30 people in a room who are from a variety of industries or from your industry, and very focused on a niche topic, is super valuable, super valuable. And presumably, you'll be able to share the links to the um the event that you're running in in the show notes for us?
Tim: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, that'd be great.
Jimmy: Amazing. That would be awesome. And you know, I think that again, thinking about working with those recruitment partners who are freely or as you say, low cost to no cost, adding value, is possibly a great way to start building that relationship and getting to know them a little bit better, and them getting to know you a little bit better, because they'll be at those events, as well. They'll be listening to the comments that are being shared, and they'll be gleaning those and assimilating those data points. So, when you need to lean on them for a bit of information or some support, they're a little bit further down the track than, "We've never spoken before, and I've got a job brief for you."
Tim: I Yeah, completely agree. I mean, you you know, you you It's about it comes all the way back to relationships. It all comes back to the position the people that you're involved with. It's not about the job that you're hiring for. It's about the It's about the people. It's about how you how you kind of structure those relationships, and where whether you're going to um invest in in the time needed to get those relationships with with uh with good recruiters and good agencies. Um, because ultimately, you know, the the cost the cost is another I guess the cost is something that comes up time and time again with it cost a lot of money to recruit people. Yeah, it does. But the the the cost of getting the wrong person, or the cost of um having to do it multiple times, or uh yeah, or the cost of not doing anything at all um it is you know, it it's all the hidden costs around that that that, you know, if you've got these long-term relationships whereby you can pick up the phone to somebody straight away and say, "I need this person," but you've already done the legwork because you've So, they know they understand the business, and they go, "Oh, yeah, I thought this was going to happen." Then, you you can you can save yourself a huge amount of time and, you know, the opportunity cost, and and then pay a fee on the top, but it's probably not as painful as if you're just flinging out a CV, or a job spec, and getting CVs in return, doesn't Which is there's very little value within there.
Jimmy: And chances are if you hire the right person, they'll assimilate into your team well, they'll add value in the team, potentially push the performance of the team up. They'll maybe grow and be promoted through the business and generate even more commercial return, and that recruitment fee will not seem like such a behemoth object Yeah. when you get 12 months down the track.
Tim: Yeah, that's it That's especially the case when you're talking about fee-earning positions in in solicitors firms and things like that, where, you know, all right, you're going to you're going to spend There's going to be some upfront costs to acquire the person, but what does that do for your business in terms of taking it forward in terms of fee generation in the future? And yeah, there's a, you know, there's a return on the investment over a period of time, but you know, you don't have that person, then you don't have the income, you don't have the revenue, you don't have the opportunity to grow.
Jimmy: Excellent. Really insightful. I love that. So, if people are looking at getting in contact with you, Tim, and working out how they can partner with what I've heard and what I've seen is a is a reputable executive search business partnership-focused agency, what's the best way for people to get in contact and and have a conversation?
Tim: I mean, the the simplest one's through through our website um uh or LinkedIn. I mean, that's I guess that's where most people spend their time on from from a from an agency or an exec search point of view. So, you know, or or doing wonderful podcasts where you're invited on to speak about what you do and why you do it. But yeah, I mean, it's it's it's really about It's really about being visible, and then taking the time to grow that relationship. So, dropping an email in uh dropping a LinkedIn message in, and just taking 20 minutes, half an hour out of your time to just have that initial hello, because actually, that's when that's when the relationship starts. It's uh You know, there's plenty of ways to get in co- contact with people. It's It's just doing it and not worrying that there's some, you know, you've got somebody trying to sell to you at the end of the phone, because that's that's definitely not the way that I like to work. I mean, I'd I'd much prefer to have a nice conversation whereby you can get some value out of it on both sides. Um, and ultimately, if that that kind of grows, then you end up with you end up with a good relationship over a long period of time.
Jimmy: Fantastic. Um, we'll we'll pop in Tim's links in the show notes below this episode so you can reach out to him if you're interested in a further conversation. Tim, thank you so much for joining us on the show today and sharing some of your wisdom around what's working, what's not working in the recruitment industry right now, and how leaders can create better partnerships to hire the right person, not just fill the position. Thank you so much.
Tim: Thanks, Jimmy.
Jimmy: That's it for this week's episode of the Ways of Working podcast. If you enjoyed the conversation here, why not head over to jimmyburroughes.com/book and grab chapter one of our amazing upcoming book, Beat Burnout, Ignite Performance. It's the leader's playbook for building a high-performance culture. So, if you're looking for practical tips and to understand why people in your team or yourself are burning out and what to do about it so you can all keep working and perform better, this is the place for you. Go to jimmyburroughes.com/book and grab that first chapter. We'll also keep you posted when the full book is released very soon. Also, if you enjoyed this episode of the Ways of Working podcast, don't forget to follow or subscribe on your preferred podcast platform of choice and we'll make sure that you get all of the upcoming episodes as they come out every single week. Take care. Speak soon.