How managers influence senior stakeholders with clarity

Diane: If you put people and purpose as your priorities, profits will follow. They will.
Jimmy: Hello and welcome back to this week's episode of The Ways of Working Podcast, your weekly dose of practical tips for leaders who are trying to gain that high-performance edge without burning themselves or their teams out. Now, before you put down your phone or click away from this window, make sure you hit follow or subscribe on your preferred platform of choice to make sure you don't miss any future episodes of The Ways of Working Podcast with our incredible experts and guests.
Welcome back to this week's episode, and this week we're joined by somebody quite special. Diane Chase is an award-winning media journalism and strategic communications professional. She is also an accredited genius business storytelling partner in, and one of only two in the world, under the tutelage of Gabrielle Dolan, who is a good Australian friend of mine. Diane is driven by a sensational purpose to help leaders and business professionals become more authentic and more impactful as communicators, and has been recognised and awarded heaps and heaps of times, and you must check out her bio, with all sorts of awards for her incredible skills in the world of leadership communication. Diane, welcome to the show. It's an absolute pleasure to have you with us.
Diane: I'm thrilled to be here, Jimmy. Thank you so much for the opportunity to have a conversation today. I'm looking forward to it.
Jimmy: Fantastic. Well, um I'm very eager to get into this one because I think we're all going to find out some interesting uh maybe misnomers or misinterpretations of what communication is, and what it looks like nowadays. But I wonder if we might start with based on your knowledge and experience working in the industry over a window of time, and we mentioned you've got decades of experience doing this, so you will have seen changes happen. What is the evolution of communication skills, and the communication skills required by leaders now, and how's that changed over time?
Diane: You know, Jimmy, it really has changed. It has been a sea change in terms of communication that really resonates and prompts people to be engaged, to be motivated, to be productive, to be loyal, all of the to be aligned. It is It's a matter of really being human. It boils down to being human. Those days of personal is personal, professional is professional, you leave your humanity at the door, that's gone. Just like command and control. The days of command and control, completely gone. People are not going to want to work for you, with you, invest in you, support you, donate to you without that human communication connection because it builds trust. When I And for all of those same areas, we're not going to want to invest in working with someone or invest in a product or a service if there's no trust there. You know? If there's no credibility. I'm not going to give you my money. Go, "I don't really trust you. You're not really credible, but here." We don't do that, right? And trust comes from communication skills, how we use our verbal and vocal skills to communicate a message. And you mentioned the strategic business storytelling. St- you know, you'll see storytelling everywhere, I'm sure, these days. In fact, on websites, "About Us" has become "Our Story," which may or may not really be the case. A lot of times it's just a timeline of the company, but they call it Our Story, because it's a thing. Storytelling is a real skill, and it's hard. Because as a As a former broadcast journalist, I had to walk that line of leave all of my personal beliefs and humanity, and and just do my work, right? Um and so it has been an evolution for me as a professional to realise that in the the local national, global marketplace, the way you're going to stand out, the way you're going to achieve your goals, is to communicate in a way that makes a human connection with another person. Otherwise, we are just a commodity.
Jimmy: Mm. One of the common misconceptions, I think, amongst some leaders that I've encountered, is that communication skills and those the fluffy skills or the soft skills often take up my time and get in the way of me making money when I'm focused on the numbers and the KPIs. And what I'm hearing is you're challenging that mindset.
Diane: Very much so. Absolutely 100%. I actually wrote a post on LinkedIn about how the term soft skills is like nails on a chalkboard to me. They're hard because we have to be we have to be a little vulnerable. We have to We have to come with our ourselves. We have to Jimmy, I'm having a conversation with Jimmy, and he's bringing his authentic self to me because he's communicating with me in a way that I can tell he's he's authentic, he's transparent, he believes in what he's doing, he's conveying an ethical mindset, and you do that through not just your words, but your non-verbals. And we pick that up, right? We We pick that up as human beings. We You know, you meet someone, you're like, "You kind of have a little bit of a strange feeling about them. You're not really sure about them." So we we really have to pay attention to, again, our non-verbal skills, our body language, and the words that are coming out of our mouth. And we have to understand, as we've all heard, it goes back to who are the stakeholders we want to communicate with, who we want to connect with, who we want to build long-term relationships with, and how can I best use the right words, the right messages, in the right way, through the right channel to to connect with them?
Jimmy: A lovely little framework there. How can I use the right words in the right time in the right way? And I think one of the Again, one of the things I encounter, and I remember going on a a communications course years and years and years ago, and they taught us the the the joy of empathy mapping, which is what do I want my audience to think, feel, and do at the end of my message? Otherwise, essentially, I'm just standing on a stage with a loud hailer, broadcasting. And the the other often common barrier that leaders find when they're communicating is, "What you heard wasn't necessarily what I said or meant." How do we How do we overcome some of these things?
Diane: Oh, gosh. Well, you mentioned storytelling, and that really is it really is the superhighway to connect with a person. Because we get to their a person's head through their heart. People get to our heads through our hearts. Again, it's about that that inspirational communicator who who just nails a business message by telling a personal story. Because we're hardwired to listen to stories, and we're hardwired to tell stories. And if you listen to the best presenters, speakers, those keynotes that you remember, they're telling stories. They're sharing a little bit about themselves. And that's why we remember them. Where, you know the the neuroscience is fascinating about how our brains work. And as you mentioned, what do we want to people to think, feel, and do? What do we want them to understand? What's going to to have them motivated and inspired to take the action we want them to take, whether it's, you know, getting on board with a company value, a new company value roll-out, or getting on board with buying a service, getting on board with coming to work for our business? What is it that that uh What sort of personal experience can we share to convey that business message? And again, it takes takes thought, it takes press practice, it takes skills building, to figure out how to do that. And there is a methodology. And I know we've all heard about the hero's journey and and all of that kind of thing, and there's all sorts of diff- different methodologies out there, but that to me is is a bit high-intensity, high-maintenance, high, you know, heavy lifting, and it doesn't have to be that way. There There is a simple methodology you can use to identify the message you want to get across, and then the way you're going to convey it.
Jimmy: Can you give us a practical example of of breaking that down? Let's say we've got to talk about maybe a restructure or something that happens reasonably frequently in a business, uh redundancies, or you know, there's lots of topical issues right now. And how would a leader, how would one of our listeners, go about preparing themselves using just a high-level view of the framework that you employ?
Diane: Well, one of the things that I encourage people to do in a in my workshops is to get a blank piece of paper, a real piece of paper, and a real pen or a pencil, and just write down all of the memorable events in their lives. You know, you always have the big ones about, you know, graduating from college, getting married, having children, but think about the little things. Like that time you had that amazing experience when you were on a vacation in Ireland. Or that time you fell when you were on your bike, and and what happened when that when you recovered from that. Just all these little things from from every aspect of our lives, on a daily basis. Um I just got back from a an international trip, and and just being in the airport, you're looking around and you're thinking, "Oh, wow." You're you know, all these potential things you're seeing that could be used in a in a story to convey a business message. So, I'll I'll give you an example, Jimmy, in terms of um how you can convey uh a business message about a value, for instance. So, there was a woman who came to the Genius Business Storytelling Workshop, and she was the head of risk for a huge organisation, and she said, "No matter how many times I tell these business unit heads that I cannot manage their risk for them, all I can do is give them the skills, knowledge, and advice to handle their own risk and be a resource for them. I can't do it. And as many times as I send case studies and data sheets and and risk analysis, they still said, 'You're the risk manager. It's your job.'" So she came up with this story from her childhood, and she said, "When I was a kid, I grew up on a farm. Growing up on a farm, we learned that there were lots of risks we need to be aware of, like when a big thunderstorm blew up, or there was a a crack in the dam, or there were snakes in summer. And mom always told us what to do, so we'd be prepared. So she said it was one hot summer day, and I had just gone down the path on my bike, and I stopped cold because in front of me was the biggest copperhead snake I've ever seen. So I immediately remembered what mom told us to do. I played statue, backed away from the snake, and ran back to the house to tell mom. And the reason I'm sharing this story with you today is to inspire you to take the opportunity to handle your own risk, no matter what that might look like."
Jimmy: What a beautiful story.
Diane: So, did you get some mental images when I was telling that story?
Jimmy: Yeah, I mean, you were painting pictures in my brain.
Diane: Right. So do you think you would remember that story?
Jimmy: Yeah. And there was a sense of I I felt like, "Oh, well, I should be owning this. Like mum's told me to own this."
Diane: Yes. Own it. So instead of saying, you know, again, just repeating, "You have to handle your own risk. I will advise you and I will prepare you, but I cannot be there every moment of the day to make sure that a risk doesn't blow up. It's your job to do that, right?"
Jimmy: Mm. And so what were some of the the skills or the framework that sat behind that story that you can highlight for us on the way through? What were the things that you were doing to create those memories, or create those ideas?
Diane: Well, you start with a time and a place. So there is a, again, there is um a methodology, and so starting with a time and a place can help you get that mental image going in the minds of your your listeners. And then put in an example, that story that you craft, to convey the message. You always start with purpose. So it's about purpose and What's the purpose of the And you have to have one. If you have more than one message you want to get across, you need another another narrative, another example, another story. So how purposeful you are and how engaging. So purpose is a message. The engagement is how you tell that story. So starting with a time and a place, figuring out the key key points in the middle, and then ending with an inspirational message. And it's not about, "And the moral of the story is," and, "So what I want you to do is," it's not prescriptive like that. And you'll have more success inspiring people as to what you want them to think, do, feel than being That's beautiful.
Jimmy: And I think what I heard was that often we have to let people evoke their own imagination while you're telling the story. As I said, sorry, you were planting ideas in my brain, but I was the one who had these dust-covered fields in Kansas, and broken fences. And I was I'm a very visual thinker anyway. But you took me into a narrative, into a universe, that made a key point around this huge copperhead snake suddenly appearing on the path. And interesting, isn't it? And and I'm I'm a complete neuroscience nerd.
Diane: Oh, really?
Jimmy: One of the things that I find very fascinating is we remember stories far better than we remember prose or risk documents or policy documents. We remember stories, because we were Our evolution is from sitting round the campfire telling stories, right?
Diane: Absolutely right. Absolutely right. And and the beautiful thing about that is that once you connect with your stakeholders, with your audience, with a story, they will understand, remember, and retell to communicate your message. So the exponential power in that, right? It's the It's the whole word-of-mouth thing. And if you want to if you want to engage people in a company value, to have that, you know, word-of-mouth going through the company, it just elevates the power of your message, and the impact of your message, and the sustainability of your message, because people are sharing that story for you.
Jimmy: Very, very insightful, and I'm I'm sure we're going to elaborate on some of these pieces as we go through. One of the questions that comes up in my mind is a is maybe a barrier, a vulnerability barrier, Mm. for some of our listeners, that, "Well, I don't want to tell a personal story about myself because this is work." How do you deal with that?
Diane: It's It is a challenge, and I would just encourage people who are hesitant about it to maybe start with being the conduit of a a colleague's story or someone in your leadership team who has a great story. You can use that story and retell it from your perspective, right? So, "I was inspired by this amazing story that I heard from Joe the other day about how he launched this new enthusiasm for our company value of integrity." And share whatever his story was, so that's like a baby step.
Jimmy: So like piggybacking on their story, essentially?
Diane: Yeah, yeah. But always add the impact, and the, you know, some message about why it impacted you, or how it impacted you. That's really important.
Jimmy: Hey, Jimmy here. Just wanted to drop into this episode, and let you know that we're so grateful for all those reviews that you as listeners leave on our podcast. We put our hearts and souls into the podcast, and the guests who we invite are absolutely fantastic. I wanted to share one review with you from a recent episode, from Kelly: "Jimmy's experience and thoughtful dialogue provide a phenomenal canvas of learning opportunities from thought leaders in the industry. It was a pleasure both listening and participating. What a great resource to learn valuable tips and tricks to navigating impactful leadership capabilities." So, not only are we thrilled to have incredible guests on the show, but we're also absolutely overjoyed that it's having a positive impact on our listeners, like you, on The Ways of Working Podcast. Speak soon.
So then And again, what I'm hearing is this is a really human to human connection. I had a fascinating conversation with uh Craig Goldblatt from the Empathy Lab in the UK, and he was talking about the fact that the constructs we work in is essentially a Victorian construct of factory workers, and all the factory's just got more complicated and more digital as time has gone on. But essentially, we're 3 million years of evolution around human to human tribal connection mechanics with a a little veneer of corporate layered over the top. And so, what I'm hearing from you is it's it's not necessarily about the message, it's about the human emotion, the human connection, and the impact that it has on you and that you want to have on others. That sounds What That's what I'm hearing. Is that Am I along the right lines?
Diane: Right. But to be very To be very clear in your own mind what you want people to, again, understand, remember, and then retell. So, what is that very clear message that you can Data's important, facts are important, of course. But how is It's going to be much more successful for you if you can wrap that data point, that factoid, into a narrative, into a story.
Jimmy: That's wonderful.
Diane: So, we want to We always We always, especially me, we always want to know why. Like, why should I care about that? How many times have you been to a PowerPoint presentation, or even a little, you know, speech or whatever, and you walk out and go, "There is an hour of my time I'll never get back." You know, "What am I supposed to do with that, right?"
Jimmy: Too many of those, unfortunately! Yes.
Diane: Oh, my gosh, yeah! So we we don't want people to do that, and we don't want people to stop listening before we stop talking. So, again, there's a There's a focus and there's a a very important aspect of being succinct, being clear and succinct. So, in the workshops, we we focus on 90 seconds. And I've had some participants tell an amazing story in less time than that. I know, it sounds like nothing. Yeah. And then other people's I've had go on for I just let them go on for 5 minutes, and they think they've been talking for a minute and 1/2, but that happens.
Jimmy: I'm trying to recall a a Churchill quote which is something like, you know, "If It's much harder for me to write 50 words than it is to write 500," or something along those lines, but same same concept.
Diane: Yeah, yeah. Exactly right. He said, uh, "I wrote a 45-minute speech because I didn't have time to write a 15-one, 15-minute one."
Jimmy: Yeah. That's the one. See, you're much more onto this than I am. Diane, you clearly got a wealth of experience, and you've told us already some great insights, but you know, how did you end up What were the key moments that ended up bringing you to this point realising that this was your gift to the world?
Diane: Oh gosh, thank you for that question. You know, um growing up, I was always more of um an observer. Was quiet, shy, an an introvert. But I think often that that has helped me It It's just kind of ingrained in me how humans interact. I'm watching people as they're talking and interacting, and I was just such an I was like a sponge for all of that non-verbal communication and the verbal as well. How are they presenting themselves? And then I got into broadcast journalism and interviewing incredible people, and trying to help them give me their best story, so that I could report on it. And it was so often that it would be I would be interviewing them and it was just kind of like, you know, nothing really was was really solid coming across, and then they'd just make an offhanded comment about something, and I I'd go, "Wait, what? You did what? Wow, that's amazing! Tell me more about that." So, I've always wanted to help people figure out how to best communicate for their own personal and professional success, and to learn how to be authentic, and to learn how to be transparent, and to learn the power that has. So, I also do crisis communication training and consulting, and it is a vital aspect of coming through a crisis, a risk, an issue, to be able to communicate well with your stakeholders, to communicate again clearly, transparently, quickly, authentically. That either mitigates the damage or exacerbates the damage, the degree into to which you can do that.
Jimmy: And so many leaders are judged on their communication style and delivery in crises, right? So, yeah, essential skills. It sounds to me like you're almost a gold miner looking for those nuggets that are inside people's lives and asking them to help uncover those nuggets to to bring them into the real world.
Diane: Exactly.
Jimmy: Such a wonderful journey.
Diane: Yes, it has been amazing. I have um I have just had such a a privilege of working with people, and and helping, you know, helping them get to those light bulb moments or coming into a training and not being terribly enthused about being there, and then walking out and just feeling very much more in control of their communication skills, and what they want to do with their skills, and how they're going to to apply them to their work. And even, as I say, communicate human communication skills are needed whether you're communicating with your child, your spouse, your CEO, your pastor. We're We're humans, and we we want to connect with another person.
Jimmy: I hear you. And I want to build on that that insight because one of the things that that I've noticed over the last few years working in various clients is we're starting to see that multigenerational workforce.
Diane: Mm.
Jimmy: And there are, you know, maybe our Millennials and our Baby Boomers, they were expecting to be communicated with in a certain way, and the It was leadership for a time. But there's a new series of generations starting to come through with very different expectations of communication, and probably even more authentic, even more human, and even more connected than ever before. What are some of the common factors or areas that you're noticing when you're working with senior leaders who are struggling to connect with those younger generations?
Diane: You know, leaving that leaving that old mindset behind where everything has to be focused on the bottom line. And I I have a a phrase I I use, Jimmy, which is It's a mantra that I I like to share with with those who are working with me who or who are clients. If you put people and purpose as your priorities, profits will follow. They will. And it is It's a unlike any other marketplace before because there are now five generations working in the marketplace, and the communication the need for communication skills has never been greater, and the challenges are unlike ever before. But again, I think if we really step back, boil it down to clarity and purpose. We know Gen Z wants to and will only work for companies that are purpose-driven, because they want to be part of something greater than themselves, and they want to contribute. They want to feel part of the greater good. And I believe that communication can be a force for good in business and society. So, let's upskill.
Jimmy: It's fairly significant!
Diane: It's And it's And it, unfortunately, can also be the opposite.
Jimmy: Absolutely.
Diane: But, and just helping people being be inspired to get s- outside of ourselves, get outside of our comfort zone, which is just, you know, be the reporter, "Just give me the facts, and let me be done with it." In certain situations, absolutely. You just need You need the facts in order to accomplish this particular task. But after that, then what? So we want to It's like the janitor who told President Kennedy, janitor at NASA, you've heard that story. He asked, "Well, what what exactly is your job?" And as he's sweeping the floor, and he looks at the president and says, "I'm helping put a man on the moon." He was part of a greater good. And don't you think he came to work excited, motivated to do his job, more than just coming in and sweeping floors every day?
Jimmy: Mhm. A high-purpose individual.
Diane: Yeah. How can leaders How can leaders inspire people at every level of the organisation to feel part of a greater good through their communication skills? And I actually um I wrote an article called The Five C's of Communication for the C-Suite and Beyond. Um I don't know if you're interested in wanting me to
Jimmy: Please share, and we'd love to share it as well in the show notes below this episode. You can scroll down, it'll be there. Thank you, Diane, for for sharing that with us.
Diane: Absolutely. The first C is compassion. So everyone is at a high need of compassion and empathy right now, considering the last three 3 and 1/2 years. And and now the whole new world of AI is bringing untold stress for a lot of people, angst, concern, worry. So let's really think about compassion and how we can include compassion in our communication. Clarity. I just can't stress that enough. In clarity comes information that really is succinct and focused and results in what we want it to result in. So, you know, it's not going to Miscommunication is is the bane of everyone's existence. And if you're clear and focused, you can avoid that. Really, really, really important. Context: How do we get people to understand why we're communicating and what we're communicating in a way that conveys the why? So give me context, so I understand, "Okay, I got it. It's not just boom, do this. Do this because. Here's why it's important. Give me some context, and I'm all in." Consistency: We have to consistently communicate. We can't just throw something all out there, expect people to go and do, and not communicate with them throughout the process. And consistency helps you build your reputation and your brand with your peers, your colleagues, your your stakeholders inside and outside the organisation. We always know that that Jimmy's going to come to the table and communicate in this way. He's going to be authentic. He's not going to keep us in the dark for periods at a time. We We can always count on him to be consistent with his communication. And then the cadence, and that really goes to understanding your audience. How often do they need to be communicated with? Do they want to be communicated with? What is the cadence to keep them engaged, and help them feel aligned, and help them feel included, so that they stay motivated? So those are the C's.
Jimmy: Incredible! A nice, simple framework. Five C's: compassion, clarity, context, consistency, and cadence. I love that. I'm um I'm really excited to be able to share that below the episode. Um and Diane, please do send that through to us so we can pop it out there. One of the things that we experience in our practice when we're working with leadership teams is the, "I'm too busy. I'm too busy to communicate. I'm too busy and I don't have the energy for or the head space for this right now, to to to communicate with compassion, clarity, to I don't have time to set context. Um consistency, I wish I could be, but I'm too busy. And cadence is whenever I can squeeze it in." That, I don't think, is an unusual circumstance for for many leaders right now. How How can I make time, create time, build in time, to communicate more effectively?
Diane: Well, you know, we uh we make happen what we prioritise. And so it just takes It takes a conscious decision to understand that nothing successful happens with poor communication. Nothing. So if you're not going to make communication a priority, then all the other things that you're doing can be twice as complicated, take twice as long, have twice as many missteps happen. If you're communicating clearly, consistently, with context, you're going to avoid pitfalls that take you off track. If your focus is the bottom line, you can get there through communication. Um and I, you know, I completely understand that this um it's not taught. In For instance, I'm I'm I've put together a uh training programme for legal professionals, for attorneys, because And it came after presenting to the Bar Association several times, where these attorneys would come up afterwards and say, "We just don't learn any communication skills in law school." And that just blows my mind, because of all professions, you have to have a trustworthy reputation if you're an attorney, and people and you're going to get clients. Um when you're a legal professional, when you're an attorney, people are coming to you in an emotional state. Even if it's just creating a will and a trust, it's an emotional state. Much less if you're in a courtroom. You have to have communication skills to get through that. So um so again, there are frameworks. Putting it on your calendar, but really identifying key messages, whether it's for a presentation, for a town hall, for a weekly meeting. Just having And you know, if you think about it, it really can de-stress you, because you're like you've got it written down. Here's the key message. Here's what I am thinking about for a narrative about how to communicate that. It just gets gets you kind of squared away in terms of of what you need to do. If If you have this big project, you're going to have to communicate about it. What are the key messages? I In my trainings, I use a Venn diagram for successful communication in the middle, and it's composed of managerial, operational, and communication. Communication is a vital part of that Venn diagram.
Jimmy: That's so interesting, so interesting. And it kind of makes me think around one of the messages we use, which is if you're too busy to communicate, you're probably communicating you're too busy, and you're probably too busy to communicate. And there's this It's almost like the the snake eating its own tail concept, but you're just you're just creating the spiral of burnout because you're not making time to communicate, which means you're probably going to stay busy. Um and that shows to everybody that you're too busy, and busy is not necessarily a good thing in leadership capability, and being recognised as a great leader. Diane, I feel like we could talk for hours and hours and hours on this, but unfortunately, we can't. So if people would like to talk to you, find out more about your storytelling, your communication, and the other workshops and and products that you um offer to the marketplace, what's the best way for them to reach out?
Diane: You know, I pretty much live on LinkedIn, that's always a good way. Um obviously, you can um go to my website, I have easy ways to contact me there on my website, chasemedia.us. But either way is great.
Jimmy: Amazing. So we'll pop those links in below in the show notes as well. Thank you so much, Diane, for joining us on this week's episode of The Ways of Working Podcast. It was an absolute pleasure to spend some time talking about the importance of communication, some key skills in storytelling, those five C's of effective C-suite communication, and so much more. Really appreciate your time, thank you.
Diane: Thank you so much, I really enjoyed it.
Jimmy: That's it for this week's episode of The Ways of Working Podcast. If you enjoyed the conversation here, why not head over to jimmyburroughes.com/book and grab chapter one of our amazing upcoming book, Beat Burnout - Ignite Performance. It's the leaders playbook for building a high-performance culture. So, if you're looking for practical tips and to understand why people in your team or yourself are burning out, and what to do about it so you can all keep working and perform better, this is the place for you. Go to jimmyburroughes.com/book and grab that first chapter. We'll also keep you posted when the full book is released very soon. Also, if you enjoyed this episode of The Ways of Working Podcast, don't forget to follow or subscribe on your preferred podcast platform of choice, and we'll make sure that you get all of the upcoming episodes as they come out every single week. Take care, speak soon.