How managers drive change in resistant government teams

Do you really care [laughter] about the people that work for you, or not? Do you really care about them as individuals? And from that standpoint, because you care about them and you want to see them be successful in their growth and development, then you're able to be even more intentional about your coaching of them and your developing of them, and making sure that they are aligned to the overall organisation goals and what needs to happen. Hello, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Ways of Working podcast, your weekly dose of practical tips for leaders who are trying to gain that high-performance edge without burning themselves or their teams out. Now, before you put down your phone or click away from this window, make sure you hit follow or subscribe on your preferred platform of choice to make sure you don't miss any future episodes of The Ways of Working podcast with our incredible experts and guests. This week, we are talking to the incredible Alex Smith. Alex is the Chief HR Officer for the city of Memphis. Alex is also the 2022 HRD Global HR 100 leader, the 2021 Memphis Business Journal Top 40 under 40, the 2021 Memphis Urban Elite, and a raft of other accolades. So, clearly, she knows what she's talking about when it comes to the world of HR. One thing that I'm particularly excited about is Alex was recognised by Today magazine but as the CHRO of the Year, and the work that she did for positioning the city of Memphis as a model for city government for the 21st century. Alex, wow, welcome to the show. How are you? Oh, thank you. It's wonderful to be here, Jimmy. Amazing. So, first of all, clearly, the city of Memphis is doing something right. But tell us a little bit about some of the work you've been up to for the last few years that has resulted in these incredible accolades, but also, I'm sure making a significant difference to the city. Absolutely. Well, I would say our focus here at the city of Memphis has been about making life better for Memphians every day. And uh it has its own set of challenges in doing that, uh but from a human resources perspective, putting in programs to help not only attract talent, especially people who may not traditionally looked at government uh as a place to work, uh as well as looking at innovative ways on how we can retain talent uh and grow and develop talent as well. And so uh I've spent the bulk of uh my last seven years and in particular the last three, I'm really focused on the challenge of how do you attract and retain talent, particularly in one of the toughest labour markets uh, I think that anyone's has seen, um due to the pandemic. Absolutely. And what was it that attracted you initially to working in central government? What was What was the route in? Well, uh from my uh beginnings as a as a young child, uh my parents were in public service, and I always had a heart for service and helping others. And so, when I had the opportunity to combine two things that I love, which is human resources and uh being able to work in the public sector, I wanted to take advantage of that opportunity and come to Memphis and and really do some good work. Um and when we think about it, the the core work of of helping to support those who are supporting others, especially uh people in their darkest moments, um is is truly life-changing work. And so it's it's been an honour to serve here in this public sector capacity. Fantastic. And I I kept on hearing that word "service" and "being of service" coming up, and I know that we're going to go into this in a little bit more detail. But for those listeners who might be sitting thinking, "Hmm, service. I'm of service." We're talking about something different, right? We're talking about servant leadership and being of service in the way you do your professional work. So, could you tell us a little bit more about what is servant leadership? So, I truly see servant leadership as being in a a a core mindset, uh and that mindset is truly being at service to other people to help other people win uh and help the organisation win. And so, what does that look like? It What it means is, you know, understanding goal alignment and how your goals connect to others, is seeing where you can uh help to um get others across the finish line. Uh it also means helping to remove blockers uh and things that are challenging, uh locating resources, helping to make sure that those that work for you have what they need to be successful, but those who are peers of yours uh have what they need to be successful, as well as your your upper leadership. Uh I really do see servant leadership as being about the focus of uh making sure that everyone has what they need to really help the organisation be successful. I love that. We talk a lot in my practice around the concept of the icebreaker leader, and we have There's There's kind of two definitions of an icebreaker, right? There's the the warm-up activity you do at the start of an interview, or at the start of a conference, where you make everybody feel safe and a little bit more relaxed, so they can do their best work, be their best selves. And then there's the other side of the icebreaker, which is that ship that sails in front of the flotilla and break literally breaks the ice. It gets that ice out the way so the other ships can sail through effectively and speedily. And I think servant leadership has a lot to do with both of those, right? How How do you see them linking up? Well, I think that there's an important part of of understanding, number one, where the organisation should be going and doing what you can to help uh push and support those around you to move in that direction. But I do see that there's an important opportunity of service and and looking at how you can um really, as you as you kind of talk about, the iceberg model, break away those things that are keeping people from being able to reach their height of success. And whether that is um you know, the lack of collaboration, and so you're the one who's the convenor that's helping to organise meetings uh or resources and you're helping to locate a grant, or or resources, or funding, or lobbying for support uh to help make sure your team has what they need. Um or as well as uh helping to even roll up your own sleeves uh and get in there and and be able to fill in the gaps where needed. But I think this understanding that it's not about you, it's about the organisation, and it's not about uh just the success of your team, but it's about the success of the organisation. To me, that is the th- this notion of of kind of selfless leading and focusing in on helping everyone achieve. I'm so aligned. We I had an amazing conversation with Kelly Jentzen, who is the Senior Director of Talent Planning and Succession from Walmart a couple of weeks ago, and she was saying that leaders need to think in an enterprise way. They need to consider the needs of the organisation, not just the needs of maybe themselves, or their immediate team, or their specific business unit, but actually thinking holistically across the enterprise. And I like the way you do that. Can you give us an example of one of the programmes, one of the initiatives that you've rolled out that's helped encourage that idea of servant leadership, and what were some of the barriers to getting it off the ground that you had? [laughter] Well, I think one of the most important, and this was truly actually during the pandemic, was we looked at opportunities uh where people could uh serve in, I'll call, stretch assignments, or uh uh high-potential opportunities um in the organisation. Uh and because we're city government and we had to help lead the vaccination effort in this area, um things like actually running a vaccination centre, or running a call centre, or running a contact-tracing centre, um helping to uh identify suppliers uh so that we could get necessary PPE out to individuals. Um it was really important to to to identify individuals who had um a willingness to serve and strong leadership abilities uh to be put into these critical roles. Uh and we didn't have a lot of time. So, that so that Of course. programme in itself was, you know, really quickly identifying um our high-potentials and placing them in these key areas where we knew we needed support and help. Uh and this is one of those things where it was life or death. You know, either either we were going to successfully do this, but failure was not an option, uh and we needed people that were willing to rise to the occasion. And uh I am so proud to say we found people that were willing to do so in every single area of our organisation, uh and we were able to help this area get through the pandemic because of that. It's so interesting, you know, to hear a real-world application of leadership versus you know, what I would call the BAU. But actually, when you were talking crisis management in a pandemic, you had to start thinking a bit differently, right? You had to look at how do we identify these high-potential people who are capable of leading initiatives in a crisis, and selecting them, and putting them through a development programme, getting them into action as quickly as possible. And yet, normally, in an organisation, the talent identification process is a kind of a once a year thing. How did you do it differently at such speed? Well, one of the things is we had already been in the discipline of talking about talent uh as a part of our performance review process. We had a We have a calibration process where we talk about the leaders in the organisation, who's ready for a new opportunities, uh what I would call a hot jobs, hot people, uh type of discussion. So, we were already in that practice for many, many years. So, when it came to uh what I would call kind of this a rapid-fire uh identification and placement, um once we started meeting uh as a part of our kind of our emergency team management and meeting on a on a daily basis, it became easy to identify people to be able to do different things. Um we also um spent time really working with our leaders to identify different skill sets. Uh so that when we said, "Okay, we need some people that know how to organise data quickly, we need people that understand uh how to use uh software technology, particularly cloud-based technology," um we were able to quickly identify those people as well uh and be able to to uh um help uh place them where we needed them. I also would say what was another important component is the rewarding factor. [laughter] Uh so, we also uh already had a spot bonus uh per- performance programme that we had in place, and so we were able to leverage that, as well as other compensation mechanisms, to be able to help compensate people for these extra duties too. So, having those things already in place or being able to think quickly about how to the support the work organisation uh in need, all of those things matter uh being able to to get the uh right behaviours going. Reminds me of that um, I don't know if it's a Japanese or a Chinese proverb, I'm probably going to murder it as well, but it's that the best time to plant a tree was 100 years ago, the second best time is today. And when you had already put in place those talent management processes and had started to have those conversations as part of your BAU, if we were to think about some of the early-stage conversations that could potentially happen If I'm a CEO or a senior leadership team member sitting around going, "I wonder who my talent is. I wonder who my high-potential people are, and when the next crisis comes along, I don't want to be left wanting." Where would those conversations start? How would they start to happen? Well, I think, first of all, it it happens actually, I would say day one when you're hiring talent um and you're talking about their goals and and what does success look like in the organisation, and you can start to identify um that people's attributes, what they're interested in, what they're good at. Um and so we do encourage uh strong manager uh one-on-ones and uh having those conversations. I think the next component in terms of being able to identify that leadership for the next level is where those talent calibration discussions come in. Uh so, at least on an annual basis, meeting together as a senior leadership team and talking through, you know, your top talent, um where they are, who's being successful, um uh is is a good practice as well so that you can keep people top of mind. Uh and and that helps too. I think there's also an important point, and I can't reiterate enough the importance of having reward mechanisms. And so, we have an annual uh employee recognition ce- ceremony called Ovation Awards, where we uh allow for peer nominations for people who have done amazing things in the organisation. Uh and so, even things like that where we're able to allow for peers to nominate people, it helps people stay top of mind uh in terms of uh achievements and uh collaborations and and successes that people have been able to have. And so, all of those mechanisms, um the the one-on-ones, the staff meetings, the annual performance review, the employee recognition programmes, uh and just overall success within different teams helps you to identify talent uh when uh you need it the most. I'm fascinated by these Ovation Awards. Tell Tell us some of the incredible things that have been done in the business. Who were the winners? Oh, wow. So, it it We had, you know, each year it it varies, but everything from, um we had someone who uh started a a uh a youth boxing league um that made a difference in curbing crime and and youth attainment in in a community. We had someone who started a Spanish-learning immersion program um that really made a difference in one of the communities. We had, of course, a team that implemented cloud technology um uh for multiple business units um that was recognised. And so, every year, there they're different teams that are recognised for different things. But the exciting part is this idea that not only are they peer-nominated, but seeing the diversity of different things. It's not just dominated by one division, um but each division has its own level of success uh that we're able to recognise uh and the and the teamwork. Um and most importantly, people really knowing that they are successful. I think that that acknowledgement um just through a nomination, even if they're not the winner, but just that nomination of, "Hey, I did something that is noteworthy, that I should feel proud of," um has really uh helped us by leaps and bounds uh from a cultural standpoint. Plus, it's nice to get people together, have some food, have some music, Right? [laughter] uh some awards, a picture or two. Uh you know, so all of those things are great as well. And it it feels like what the city of Memphis is doing is trying to create a a curious culture, a learning culture, a growth culture. But I love the idea, we go right back to the start of our discussion around that servant leadership. Actually, it starts with that, you know, those one-on-one conversations. And one of those questions might be, "What are your hidden skills?" or "What are the things you really want to do that are going to make a difference to our city, to our team, our business unit, whatever wherever you may be sitting? And how do I support you to get there? How do I support you to achieve that?" And I remember from our previous conversation, you mentioned that it's almost like parenting in in terms of the way that you want your leaders to interact and to ask those exploring questions to encourage their teams to ex- to to try some new stuff. And that might end up with an Ovation Award, sure, but it it's certainly going to end up with more engagement and more satisfaction. What are your thoughts on the parallels between parenting and great leadership? So, as a mother of two, I'm exploring this idea uh as well of of of the this this idea of being, you know, really responsible for the care and feeding of employees, just like you're responsible for the care and feeding of your children. Um and and not in the way of you're being patriarchal, or or dictating, but more in the spirit of, you know, you play a role in their growth and development. And so, being intentional about how do you want to grow and develop um your children, just like you're intentional about how do you want to grow and develop your employees. Um being intentional about the values that are important to you. So, if you want to have a collaborative environment where people are problem-solving and co-creating together, then similarly in the household, you should create an environment where people are collaborating, co-creating together, not us versus them. Um so, it's it's really more about actually this intentionality. I think that's where the the parallels are, and understanding the responsibility. So, it's no longer about just positional authority of, "I'm a supervisor, and I get paid more money, and you're going to just do what I say." But it's more about the responsibility of, "No, it is my responsibility to to help grow and develop and and and ensure that this talent um is reaching their potential, just like I I do at home with my children." So, um that's that's really where I'm I'm really starting to make this exploration and seeing um these cross paths. So, you know, just like I make a vision statement here at work, I'm looking at, how do I make a vision statement at home? Where Where do I want my children to go? Um and and how do I help them get there? Um this idea around collaboration, um if I expect teams uh internally to collaborate, not just say, "Oh, it's so-and-so's fault," or or etc., for things not getting done, then I should have the same spirit of collaboration at home, too. So that both of them are working together. So, everybody uh must get their homework done before anybody watches TV, and we have to do these things together. So, um I think that this idea of uh not compartmentalising work from home, that some of the same skills that you build at work can work at home, and some of the skills that you build at home can can help you at work, and uh understanding that uh congruency between the two. Hey there, Jimmy here. I just wanted to drop in on this episode and say an enormous thank you for all of the amazing reviews, and testimonials, and feedback we're getting about The Ways of Working podcast: top 10% globally and absolutely thrilled to be there bringing as much value as we can from the Ways of Working community to you, our listeners. I wanted to drop a quick note of one of the beautiful reviews that was left by Jennym49. Thank you so much, Jenny, for that kind review. Jenny says, "For those people who want to gain a practical performance edge full of practical tips in every episode, tune in here." Jenny, we really appreciate your feedback. Thank you so much, and hope that you, our listeners, will follow and subscribe using your favourite podcast platform of choice and bring every episode to share value, knowledge, and expertise from our incredible guests. Take care. Speak soon. That was my next question, for sure. What have your kids taught you that you've brought to work? [laughter] Well, one thing, ah for sure, patience. [laughter] Um and and adaptability, and flexibility. Um but also, I think, this idea around um the importance of relationship. So, I really do think I missed the market first when I became a parent, um that having that relationship with your children um just is just as important as you need to have a relationship from a manager to an employee. And just as we talked about, the importance of those one-on-ones, because those one-on-ones are when you get to learn people's interests, what's working, what's not working, that's where you can provide feedback, redirection. Well, you know, we have structured one-on-ones at work, but I wasn't having structured one-on-ones at home. [laughter] Uh until recently, I started to be intentional of, "Okay, let me make sure I have individual time with each child." Uh and through that, I've learned a lot about the importance of that relationship and building that relationship with each child, and each family member, and being intentional about it, once again, just as you are at work. Uh and through that, you're able to have empathy and understanding, but you're also able to actually be more effective because you really understand the people, you understand what they need, they want, and your emotional intelligence can really be at work Mm. in terms of making sure you're providing the right level of resources and really being the servant that you want to be uh in terms of helping them win. Absolutely. Now, I'm I'm so fascinated by this paradigm of parental leadership, service leadership in the workplace. And you know, one of the things that I think we see often leaders at all levels, but particularly senior leaders, is that their expectations on their staff changes from what they might have as the expectations of their children. So, for example, you want your kids to go out and explore things. You want them to try new things. And if they fall over, you pick them up and you dust them off, and you make sure they're not bleeding too badly, and then you send them on their way to go try again. But in an organisation at that senior level, we seem to have this perception that the cost of failure is catastrophic or career-ending, or terminal. How can leaders bring that servant parental leadership curi- you know, "Go Go explore, go try some stuff. Uh collaborate, work together, work with your brother and sister," um into the workplace, where it's, "Hey, team, I want you to try some stuff, and and this is how we can do it." How How do they transition that in a natural way? Well, I I think that this idea of that, first of all, that one-on-one relationship, and that and building that empathy, um I I think that helps. Uh and, once again, really focusing in on do you really care [laughter] about the people that work for you, or not? Do you really care about them as as individuals? Uh and and from that standpoint, because you care about them and you want to see them be successful in their growth and development, then you're able to be even more intentional about your coaching of them, and your developing of them, and making sure that they are aligned to the overall organisation goals and what needs to happen. And so, once you are able to have that established relationship, that caring, and that alignment around the goals, then you can create an environment where you don't have to be as risk-averse, because you understand that they understand what you need in your perspective, and you understand them, and then you're able to give better redirection and guidance uh within those parameters to really help them be successful and for them to explore, but explore, of course, with some guardrails, because you've you've given that that perspective. Um but they're able to to do it in an informed way. And And so, I think that that relationship, that that sharing of the strategy, and that understanding, um that all can create a the right culture, um so that people can take risks, um but take intelligent risk, um within the organisation. And then, because you have that relationship, if something needs to be uh have a a change of course, or it needs to be redirected, you have the relationship to do so, and they won't see it as you having an indictment on them as a person, they'll see it as you're giving them feedback so that they can be successful. And so, I I think that that's where that's where it matters the most. Right. It's wonderful. I keep finding these moments where we keep overlapping on the things we think about, and you mentioned the word "care". We know from the McKinsey research that the number one reason most people leave their organisations is because their leader doesn't care. And yet, when you go and talk to leaders, 99.9% of leaders go, "Of course, I care." So, we've got this care dissonance: I don't feel cared about, but my leader says they care about me. How, in that one-on-one conversation, what are some of the questions that you, as a senior leader, would be asking to try and get to the bottom of, "I care about you, and let's build a relationship of empathy and care together"? Well, I One thing I will say is you can't go into a meeting saying, "Let's build a relationship of empathy and" You know, it it has to be more more authentic than that. Absolutely. [laughter] Um and so, when I have my one-on-ones, I talk with my particularly my direct reports, and I coach other leaders to do this as well, ask them about them. What are they interested in? What do they want to do? Where are they from? What brought them here? Um what would they like to do next? Uh and and really ask those getting-to-know-you questions that that is the beginning of showing that you have a genuine interest in someone and that you care about them. Mhm. Um the the basis of any human relationship is you asking someone about them, uh and not leading the conversation just uh with you and what you want, and what's important to you, um but asking them. Uh so, I think taking the time to to, once again, build that individual relationship and to ask those questions, uh I think is important. I think the second component is that authenticity and vulnerability as a leader. So, people appreciate it when you come to them and say, "Hey Hey, I don't have all the answers, but I'd like to hear your perspective or your point of view on something." Uh and even if you disagree, you can respectfully disagree, but it it, but it doesn't mean that um that they're not valued because you disagree. So, I think that that ability to be vulnerable, to say, you know, "This is what I know. This is what I don't know, or here's what I'm challenged with as a leader," uh asking people their opinion as well, um and you couple that with you've already had some introductory conversations getting to know them as a person, all of that creates a a beautiful um opportunity where you can show care and concern, um and build that type of rapport with each other. Mhm. It's What I'm hearing is that this is not a process, this is a personal relationship. It keeps going back to this human connection first, right? Human connection first, absolutely. Absolutely. People will go to the ends of the Earth for others that they really believe care about them. Mhm. And and um believe that have a genuine interest in wanting to see the mission be successful, and see them be successful as people. Ah, absolutely incredible. And once I know that I've built a relationship with somebody in my team, and we've decided that we're clear on the mission and vision of the organisation, we've set some objectives, and we want that person to now go off and start exploring, what are some of the things I could do that might be on-the-job development opportunities, or stretch assignments, that are going to allow that person to grow and shine, and potentially get an Ovation Award, but potentially just do some great work? Well, one thing I'll say is no every organisation has no shortage of problems, [laughter] right? There's There's Everybody has big big, hairy, audacious goals or or big challenges that they're faced with, um especially during the pandemic and even post-pandemic now. Uh and so, those beautiful problems that come up, um those are excellent opportunities for you to give someone an opportunity to stretch themselves and to um really work on what how do we solve this problem, and work with others on how to solve the problem. So, I love the on-the-job experiences of cross-functional teams, cross-functional task force, um you know, tasking someone with with solving a problem that's there for the organisation, whether it's, you know, you're having high call volume, or you're having uh increasing in expenses, and you're asking, "Hey, can you do a deep dive on this and give me some recommendations on how to solve that?" Um whether big or small, those problems and giving somebody the opportunity to to get creative and think through um how to solve that for the organisation, those are wonderful, wonderful opportunities to grow and develop people uh on the job. Uh I think also whenever you have turnover, uh I I think that's a great opportunity um where if somebody's leaving and you need someone to fill in in the interim, while you're searching for a new person, or you give somebody the opportunity to maybe have a job enlargement uh and and take on a a few more responsibilities, uh those are great opportunities too. Um and so, always be thinking about how you can grow and develop people and build different capabilities. One thing I know to be true, and I think any personal trainer would tell you this, is that you can't build muscle without working the muscle. [laughter] And so, For sure. being intentional about giving people opportunities to grow and develop um in whatever areas are important for them, uh you got to give them opportunities to practice and and and creating the environment to to do that uh is is important. I heard a critical statement there. It's the areas that are important to them, because then they're going to be motivated to do that. So, understanding what's important to them, understanding whether they're looking for that stretch assignment now, or actually, they've just had a new child, or they've got a sick member of the family at home, and so their eyes right now the priority is somewhere else, and adapting and flexing the plan to meet the needs for the business based on the talent and the capability you've got is absolutely critical. Have you got any amazing examples of where you've been stretched in in your own career that has allowed you to grow and develop to where you are now? [laughter] Absolutely. Um I have I have a few different examples. So, early in my career, I started off in HR, and then I took the bold move to leave HR and go into the operations and uh join the customer experience team. Um and it was two years of of really, really challenging work. Everything from learning a new vernacular, um because HR has its own way of speaking and doing things, and then actually going into the operations and having to learn different um important metrics, different words, definitions, and rhythms, and things like that, um all of that was a big stretch. Uh but one of the things that was very, very important to me at the time, and it still is, is building both breath and depth. So, understanding um you know, challenges from a multitude of different perspectives, uh and then being able to uh meet other people and and understand different ex- experiences, etc. So, that experience of going into the operations, I learned a lot about uh customer success, customer success mapping, NPS scores, and things of that nature. And so, uh moving years down the line, now in this role as head of HR, everything from uh the way that I look at employee engagement surveys and how uh we stack against other organisations, and how do we look at uh getting employee feedback and and responding to that, uh to also looking at that customer journey mapping. So, in particular, um we've improved our time to fill. Uh and and a part of that was really mapping out the journey. Um and what's the type of experience we wanted candidates to have and, and most importantly, how we wanted our hiring managers to interact with that process, so that we could create the best candidate experience we could, uh as well as shortening the timeframe. So, that experience of of stepping into operations really gave me exposure to a number of different ways of how different businesses can operate and how to think about the customer experience, and I've been able to translate that into HR. Amazing. And how did your leader support you as you stepped from an HR role into an operational role? What support did you get? So, I actually was able to get support both from um my the leadership in HR at the time as well as my mentors as well. Uh and one of the things that I found really important is being able to have peer mentors and get extra support, um because whenever you make a big change like that, you're really learning a new language, learning a new culture, etc. And so it's good to have uh coaching and mentorship from others so they can say, "Hey, you know, when you're doing your PowerPoint, you might want to do it this way, cause in this environment, they like to see it this particular way. Or, you know, you want to make sure you set up your calls at 5:00 a.m. so you can hit all the major time zones." [laughter] Um Because, you know, APAC is 12 hours ahead, and and, you know, London's in the middle, and so you you uh might need to set your schedule up a little bit differently. And all those things uh and and advice was really helpful. I love that. And And the the idea of having that servant leader sitting behind you to be supportive and encourage you, and it allow you to explore some, as you say, some whole new paradigms, just sounds a gift and has clearly set you up for for success in in the current role. Just as we move to finish up, what's exciting on the rest of the year's agenda for you? [laughter] Well, um we are at the end of our term. So, um we are a term-limited, and we've served two terms. So, our last day here is December 31st, 2023. And so, uh this year is all about the the year transition, and how do we help uh not only have good standard operating procedures, but um really good understanding information about our organisation so that we can have a uh succinct and and peaceful transfer of power uh into the next administration. And so, a lot of my energy is is really spent towards how do we make sure we codify everything we've done, make sure we captured our lessons learned uh and good practices so that we can can pass that on and and help continue the momentum for the city of Memphis. Fantastic. Sounds like some incredible work underway, and I know the city of Memphis is extremely grateful for all of the hard work that you and your team are doing. If people want to get in touch, if they want to learn more about the work you do and the inspiration that you provide, what's the best way for them to reach out? They can uh find me on LinkedIn. Um I'm at CHRO Alex Smith. Um I'm also on Instagram and Twitter. And definitely can connect with me at any of those platforms uh and uh hear more about what's happening with me and uh what's happening uh with our work here at the city of Memphis. Fantastic. And we'll make sure that we pop in the links in the show notes, so you can find all the details to contact Alex right below this episode. Alex, thank you so so much for taking us on an incredible journey through servant leadership, through the concepts of collaboration, through a little bit of parental leadership as well, and then finally into how we manage stretch assignments, risk tolerance, and all of the other things that are going on at the city of Memphis. Really appreciate your time. Thank you. Absolutely. Thank you so much, Jimmy. That's it for this week's episode of The Ways of Working podcast. If you enjoyed the conversation here, why not head over to jimmy-burroughes.com/book and grab chapter one of our amazing upcoming book, Beat Burnout, Ignite Performance? It's the leader's playbook for building a high-performance culture. So, if you're looking for practical tips and to understand why people in your team or yourself are burning out, and what to do about it so you can all keep working and perform better, this is the place for you. Go to jimmy-burroughes.com/book and grab that first chapter. We'll also keep you posted when the full book is released very soon. Also, if you enjoyed this episode of The Ways of Working podcast, don't forget to follow or subscribe on your preferred podcast platform of choice. And we'll make sure that you get all of the upcoming episodes as they come out every single week. Take care. Speak soon.