How managers embed purpose into culture transformation

Andrea: finding all the different ways that we needed to support the business to make it part of, yeah, the way that we talk and how we line all of those up. And of course, that starts with our executive team and, you know, and how they line um everything that we're doing to our culture and that we can demonstrate that culture has got a direct link and serves what we're doing from a strategy and a purpose perspective.
Intro: Welcome back to this week's episode of The High Performance Leader. The podcast for leaders working in complex, challenging environments to gain insights and ideas which help you increase your impact without burning out and to help you build a high-performance culture in your team. I'm your host, Jimmy Burroughes. And if you're new to The High Performance Leader, make sure you subscribe or follow so you don't miss any of our upcoming episodes before you put down your device.
Jimmy: Hello and welcome back to this week's episode of The High Performance Leader. I am genuinely thrilled to welcome this week's guest, Andrea Duncan, who is the GM Culture Capability and Performance at Kiwibank. Andrea is in esteemed company. She's our second guest to have been named in the Human Resources Director's HRD Global 100 for 2023, and we'll hear a little bit more about that later on, I'm sure. For the last couple of years, Andrea has been leading Kiwibank's culture shift to position them for the next 20 years. She's also a board member of The Duke of Edinburgh New Zealand chapter, and recently got to spend some time with HRH, The Duke of Edinburgh, himself. Um, really fascinating project that to be involved in there. A big part of the work that Andrea has been involved in for the last couple of years with Kiwibank has been around redefining their culture and the impact that that is now having on the organisation. Andrea, thank you so much for joining us. How are you and welcome to the show?
Andrea: Thank you very much, really um happy to be here. Um we've got a beautiful day here in Wellington and yeah, summer's on its way.
Jimmy: Wonderful, good to hear! And uh obviously for those of us who aren't familiar with Kiwibank, kiwi is probably a bit of an indicator, but give us a little bit give us a bit of an intro to what is Kiwibank and how did you end up there?
Andrea: So Kiwibank is our fifth largest bank here in New Zealand and the largest New Zealand-owned bank, and so a you know, a really key part of supporting Kiwi to be better off. We're a purpose-led organisation and our purpose is really what drives us in the work that we do and wanting to make a difference for all Kiwi here in New Zealand. I actually ended up here a little bit by accident and an opportunity arose to do some project work, uh which I took on the opportunity to do, and then the role I'm in came up, and I became a permanent um part of the business, and so yeah, it's been a really exciting few years and something that I've been really loving doing.
Jimmy: Super interesting, and we're going to dive into a lot of these pieces more deeply, but something you said there: "a we're a purpose-led organisation". And that's that's a term we're hearing quite a lot now in the employment marketplace and in the brand marketplace for differentiating yourself to attract the best talent possible. But can you just share in your own words, what is a purpose-led organisation, first of all?
Andrea: So in terms of what I understand a purpose-led organisation to be is that um we have a really clear understanding of what we're trying to do to make a difference for and who we're trying to make a difference for. And we've got three key areas that we're really focused on driving change in, and one is about making a difference for tamariki, for the young people here in New Zealand, and that's really around making financial education accessible to all young people. We want to make a difference for Kiwi, as well. And that is in terms of helping to enable them to have financial security, and that is often related to being able to purchase your first home, or making key financial decisions that are going to enable you to have a more stable financial future. And then also for business here in New Zealand, and and our focus is around enabling businesses to be supporting their sustainable journey. We're a B Corp certified organisation, so we've really strong focus on sustainability, and we want to enable other businesses to be able to support their own sustainable journeys as well. And so having that really clear sense of purpose that is a key to what we're driving towards really helps, I think, to have a, you know, a common focus for why people want to work here. And a lot of what brings people to Kiwibank and what enables people to stay is having that clear sense of we're making a difference for New Zealand.
Jimmy: I love that idea of getting very clear of what you're doing and who you're there to serve, and getting everybody aligned around that concept. And for our listeners outside New Zealand, Kiwi is a vernacular term for for New Zealand or New Zealander. So Andrea's using the internal lingo there of the country, but I think it really lays out the importance of getting that clarity and being very focused on the people you're there to serve and the communities and the businesses that you're there to serve. So if we can rewind the clock a little bit and talk about the journey that you have now ended up at well probably the 2/3 of the way or the mid-point of the journey, but if we can go back to the beginning, what did that organisation look like from a cultural standpoint and what were the sort of the indicators that you were seeing that some of our listeners may be able to identify in their own organisations as well?
Andrea: When I joined Kiwibank, I think the culture here, from what I understand, the culture here at Kiwibank has generally been pretty good, and I when I joined, it was quite early in the days that I joined that we started exploring what we needed. So I think the that common focus around being the largest New Zealand-owned bank and, you know, and having a a sense of of, you know, that purpose, was has always been quite strongly there, from what I can understand. When I joined the organisation, we were in, you know, at the early stages of a technology transformation, which is is a big part of the journey that we're on at the moment. And what drove us to look at have we got the culture that we need to be successful in the future was, you know, if we're doing a lot of work around technology transformation or change, what else do we need to be looking at in terms of the way that we're working? And is the culture that we've got going to serve us in terms of being able to take us forward? And that was really the big driver. So it wasn't that there was any issues with the culture, or any problems with the culture that we had here. It was more about going, is what we've got really going to help take us forward? And so what we did was then set about understanding what do we think we need? And and it wasn't about a small group of people or our senior leaders, you know, saying, this is what we need. It was actually going, let's go and talk to the organisation and hear from as many people as possible about, you know, what are the things that they've if they are really thriving and growing, what's happening for them in the culture as an individual that enables you to show up and do your best work? And then also, we're at that stage, so this was back in sort of 2021 time, we were looking at our 2025 strategy, you know, what's happening in the environment that's driving us to deliver on that strategy? So we got people to sort of think and project forward a little bit. So it was really those two questions. And we spoke to over 2,000 people. So we spoke to about 92% of Kiwibank, and that was a real investment in having those conversations. And they were either facilitated online, all face to face, but it was actually, you know, the we've got a huge amount of data out of those conversations that then enabled us to distil that down into some key themes that helped us to understand, actually, we do need to make a shift in the way that we're talking about our culture, and and the the way that we want to focus and embed our culture that will enable us to be successful in the future. We were able to build some very clear sort of "from-to"s to help us start to get into that measurement progress and and look at the transition that we're making. So it was really that, you know, the driver around have we got the culture that is going to enable us to be successful in the future?
Jimmy: I really admire the 92% of the organisation being talked to. What are some of the variables or the factors or the the pieces of culture that you measure to define what the culture is?
Andrea: Well, actually we first wanted to make sure that we were measuring culture as opposed to engagement. And I think that's a, you know, it's an interesting they're different. And what we were understanding at the time when we talk to a lot of people, because we'd went and we talked we did quite a lot of research, as well, we went and spoke to other organisations, we spoke to other people who had been on culture journeys and a lot of what people were talking about was actually engagement sort of wrapped up in that sort of culture, "this is what culture is". And we were very clear, actually, that we saw culture being quite different, and one of the things that we really focused on at the time was Edgar Schein, and, you know, and his model of culture, and, you know, we felt a real connection to what Edgar Schein defined as as culture. And and so we were really clear that we saw that, whilst they culture and engagement are linked, they are quite distinct and different. And so when we went into selecting a tool to help us measure our culture, we were very specific that we wanted to find an organisation that could actually tangibly help us to measure culture, not engagement sort of wrapped up in trying to define what culture is. So um so that was a real, you know, kind of a distinction for us. Um but for us, it's really around, you know, what are the the behaviours, the mindsets, the thinking that goes into help, you know, what drives culture forward, and being really clear around those key areas. And so when we when now when we look at measuring culture, we've been able to adapt. So we ended up selecting a tool called Glint, which had a very clear model of culture, which is really quite aligned to the thinking that we had around how we define culture. And then we've now we measure all of those key elements as we survey Kiwibank regularly. And so so it's been the all of those different types of areas that we're really focusing on on measuring.
Jimmy: I like that. So the beliefs, the behaviours, the actions, the words people are using, the way they describe the organisation. And that is, as you say, it's interlinked with engagement, but it is quite fundamentally separate when we think about we can't just measure engagement as a measure of culture. We have to look at the two in conjunction with each other.
Andrea: We do.
Jimmy: What were some of the big surprises that came up of where you were versus where you thought you needed to be as a culture for 2025?
Andrea: Well, I think one of the big surprises was that the way we described culture previously, so we had three values that we had, and they were very if you understand New Zealand culture, you know, there's a way that Kiwi like to, you know, like to talk about things, and there's, you know, there's a bit of a vernacular around, you know, Kiwi lingo. And so the values that we had previously were they felt authentic to Kiwibank at that time, and were quite a, you know, in that Kiwi colloquial sort of vernacular. And for many people, they thought that it felt right, and it did. I mean, it's a bit like, you know, when you when you're used to something, then it does feel right, and it does feel like you. What the data told us out of the conversations was that, you know, they were fine, but they weren't going to serve us going forward, and we did need to shift that. And I remember having a conversation with our CEO at the time who said, "Well, you know, we've got a lot of things going on. Um changing the way that we're going to talk about our culture is a, you know, it's a massive undertaking, and we've got a lot of other things going on. And I, you know, I don't want to be putting additional pressure on the organisation to change something that we don't need to think we need to change. And, you know, and do we actually need to change that?" And, you know, I was like, "Well, you know, our people are saying, 'Yes, we do.' Our people are saying that these whilst these values feel like us at the moment, is it just because they've been there for quite a long time? What they're saying is this doesn't they don't think that these are going to take us forward." And, you know, and we had a conversation around, "Well, can we, you know, take what they're saying and can we almost retrofit it into what we've already got?" Like, "No! You know, this is um they've to- they've told us we want these these are the four things that we need." We had three values at that stage. And actually, you know, and it wasn't values that they were saying that they needed, it was more mindsets, and that's how we now talk about our culture is in the context of four mindsets. And, you know, and if we can enable people to have the mindset of, you know, that they belong, or a mindset around rising to the challenge, you know, that helps us to drive behaviour and outcomes and and the talk. So we actually moved from, you know, organisational values to describing our culture in the context of mindset. So, so that was quite, you know, that was probably a the, you know, a big surprise actually, and you know, and then the challenge of of going, "Well, we're actually going to to we're going to we're going to make the big decision of shifting the way that we talk about this."
Jimmy: I really like the reframing of values into mindsets, and it's something that echoes a lot of the work we do, where you're Most for most people, the values are a poster on the wall or they're a something in the signature in the email block. And very rarely are those internalised, and they don't become an inner belief. And if they don't become an inner belief, they don't actually shift the behaviours and actions of the people. So moving to that mindset model when you're trying to shift a culture, allow I think is, well, an advantage for helping people to to move through an internalisation process. Fascinating. Really fascinating.
Midroll: Hey, there, Jimmy here, and I just wanted to drop into this episode and let you know we're extremely grateful for all of the incredible reviews and feedback that we're getting about the Ways of Working podcast. We've managed to get ourselves, amazingly, into the top 10% globally of all management podcasts, which is an absolute dream for me to be able to share the Ways of Working message across a wider community. I wanted to share a quick review from one of our listeners because it's absolutely incredible and inspiring to those people that we're trying to reach and communicate with. From Pinnacle Coach: "Jimmy is a great, natural interviewer, and his background helps him to ask some really good questions. I've enjoyed a couple of the episodes from here, and always come away feeling inspired for my own work." Pinnacle Coach, thank you so much for that incredible review. We really appreciate it. And if you haven't already, make sure you subscribe or follow on your favourite podcast platform of choice to the Ways of Working podcast, and we'll see you soon. Take care.
Jimmy: And, of course, we're painting a fairly rosy picture here that, of course, you spoke to 92% of people and they told you that they wanted to move from these three values to these four mindsets. And, of course, everybody wanted to go on the journey, right? Everybody was really keen. There was no resistance at all. Tell us the truth of the story, Andrea.
Andrea: Yeah. So there was a couple of things, actually. One was, of course, first of all, having that conversation with our CEO around that, you know, the transition from going, you know, we're shifting our values to, you know, now a new way potentially. We're recommending a new way of of talking about our culture. And then, of course, having that conversation with our whole of executive team to you know, to get their endorsement around what we needed to do. And, you know, when you've got something that is quite deep-seated and is a comfortable way of doing things, um and you're recommending something new with something as fundamental as this, you know, it's a really big decision to make. And so we really wanted to be clear that this wasn't our thinking. It wasn't just what we had come up with, that we were representing the views of all, you know, just over 2,000 people that we'd spoken to. And so we had to be really clear about how we demonstrated the process of going from 18,500 individual pieces of data from the conversations plus all of the anecdotal information and that we were able to synthesise that into four key areas. And then, of course, we had the conversation about, well, three is usually the best number for these sorts of things, and, you know, is four going to be too much? And, you know, there's a lot for people to remember, and, you know, how do we keep it simple? Plus also, we have an interesting scenario here in New Zealand, where, you know, we have English and te reo Māori, as well. And, you know, and you know, and us being Kiwibank, it's really important that we're representing New Zealand and being representative of Kiwi. So it's that balance as well of the English and te reo. And previously, we'd had an English version of our values and a te reo version of our values, and they meant slightly different things, and so you could use them in slightly different ways. And we wanted to eliminate that, and to have, you know, one way of talking about our culture. So there's a few interesting, you know, hurdles I think that we needed to get through, and so we had to be really clear about how we we talked about that journey to demonstrate how we progressed through that process. So that first hurdle was really around helping our CEO and and our executive team to really understand that and be comfortable that to take on our recommendation. Um, then in terms of the the actual process of rollout, interestingly, we were in in of that long lockdown in Auckland when we finally released and launched, so it was actually quite hard to get a sense of how other people are feeling, because we were, you know, we in Auckland, I was at home, and so we launched these online. And it As I reflect on the last couple of years, I don't remember particular pushback or people saying, "This doesn't feel right. This doesn't work for us. This doesn't," because And I think mainly because we were reflecting the conversations that we'd had with everybody. And so when the organisation, when people in the organisation have had the opportunity to contribute to how we all want to talk about our culture, then in many ways it's actually quite hard to say, "Well, I disagree with that," or, "That doesn't feel like the right thing to do," or, "It doesn't feel like the way that we want to be talking about our culture." So I think, you know, that's probably a big part of it. What I will say, though, is that it's a lot of effort in and hard work to enable people to connect with it, to understand what it means, then to be able to start to make it their own. And so we did the the actual hard work, I think, is in the embedding process. And getting things in front of people, as you said, you know, we don't want it to be posters on the wall, and we we actually do now have some, [laughter] but we didn't for a long time. Again, because we were all you know, we were in we were in lockdown. But, you know, it's it's how we bring it into everything that we talk about, and the language, how it becomes, you know, the part of the vernacular of the way that we talk about what we're doing and how we can line everything that we do into these aspects of our culture. So the hard work for us was in terms of finding all the different ways that we needed to support the business to make it part of, you know, the way that we talk and how we line all of those up. And of course, that starts with our executive team, and, you know, and how they line everything that we're doing to our culture and that we can demonstrate our culture has got a direct link and serves what we're doing from a strategy and a purpose perspective. So, you know, coming back to answering your question, very long-winded way of answering your question is that I don't think we particularly had so much pushback. I think it was more about ensuring that people really could see the connection with where we'd landed, and then we had to really support the business in in lots of different ways to enable us to embed it over time.
Jimmy: I really resonate with that, because I think one of the reasons that culture change journeys often fall over is because it's just seen as a process. And I don't know if you've come across that sport curling, where they throw the stone along the ice, and you've got those people who are feverishly sweeping the ice in front of the stone to make it glide more smoothly.
Andrea: Yes.
Jimmy: Yeah. And I and I kind of see culture change is like that. You know where the target is. You know where you are releasing the stone from. But all the way, you've got to be sweeping the obstacles out the way and you've got to be smoothing the ice so the culture change can start to glide and flow through. Otherwise, you do you hit friction, you hit resistance, you hit barriers in people. And that can cause some real challenges for the success of the journey, but also the way that people receive the journey, because they then feel like it's being done to them versus that they're part of something and they're they're embracing this journey as they go through it. So I really like that that sort of sense that you took approaching it like a journey. Um, but you will have encountered some people who flat-out resisted, right?
Andrea: I actually I No, we didn't. No.
Jimmy: No? Okay!
Andrea: No! [laughter] And and, you know, and I
Jimmy: Amazing!
Andrea: And when when I, you know, when I was thinking about some of the things that, you know, we could talk about here, you know, and I was, you know, I was like, there is, you know, and then I'm going, am I living in a bubble? Am I, you know, because there's, you know, of of of being so deeply involved in in the work? I haven't spoken to anybody who has flat-out resisted what we've done with our culture. And I think part of it, too, is probably that we haven't been too prescriptive about what the culture is. So whilst we have our four mindsets, what we call Ngā Kōwhaka, so whilst we have those four and we're clear on um what those four are, so, you know, it is about a place to belong, rise to the challenge, better together, customer at the heart. And underneath that, we haven't then gone, "Right, this is what a place to belong looks like. This is what rise to challenge We have some thoughts and ideas around this is what it is and this is what it isn't, but actually it's up to you to find, so within your team, what does a place to belong look like? You know, what is rise to the challenge? What does that mean to you in terms of the work that you're doing and the the opportunities and the challenges that are ahead of you? And how do you line all of that up with, you know, the direction that we're going? So whilst we're clear on those four areas and we have some overarching ways of describing those, it's actually up to each of us as individuals and within the team that we work in that we go, yeah, how does that work for us? What does that look like? You know, what does what does, yeah, how do I know that I belong? So so I think that's, you know So if you're not being so prescriptive, then it's it's, you know, it's there isn't a lot of resistance that people can have because it's up to them to decide how it works for them. So I, you know, I wonder if that's partly maybe why we haven't had that sort of flat-out resistance to what we've been doing.
Jimmy: Mmm. No, I admire that approach, and it it echoes again some the work that we that we recommend. I think often as an HR function or as a people and culture function, it can be very tempting to go, "Well, here's our values, and then here's the behaviours that demonstrate those values, and then here's the the capability matrix that sits under those behaviours." And becomes very, very prescriptive.
Andrea: Yes.
Jimmy: Uh we work on a basis of a model of four Cs, which is initially what's the concept that we're trying to get across here? So for you, it would be, you know, "better together", for example. Then what's the content that supports that, as you say, some underlying thoughts? And that's where a lot of teams get stuck. And actually, the magic, the beauty in the engagement comes from the context and the conversation.
Andrea: Absolutely.
Jimmy: So the context is, "And what does that mean to me?" And the conversation is, "And how are we going to talk about that together?" And if we can embrace those the second two Cs out of the four, then actually, you get far more traction in in a culture change like this than you would if you're just saying, "Yeah, here's the concept and here's the content. Now you have to go do." Because, again, people aren't internalising it, which is key.
Andrea: Absolutely. Yeah, no, I I agree with what you're saying there. And I think that is, you know, let individuals, let teams work that out for themselves and we don't need to be telling people, you know, how it feels to belong, nor should we [laughter] nor should we be. But, you know, here's some ways that you can have the conversation within your teams and here's some tools to help you do that. But, you know, that's now yeah, and then you're empowering people to do that, you know, to to create the space. And we, all of us, collectively create the culture here. So each of us need to, you know, understand the role that we're playing.
Jimmy: Love that. I'm I'm so intrigued and fascinated by the journey that you're going on. We're moving into uh the last piece of the podcast and I wanted to you mentioned, obviously, Edgar Schein's work and the beauty of the the model and the framework that he created. But I was wondering if there's a couple of resources that you'd recommend to our listeners to really get stuck into, give them a better understanding of culture change work, what would you be going and recommending?
Andrea: Well, actually I was thinking about that. Yeah, I actually think from a, you know, in the culture space, I mean, there's a lot of information out there, you know, and and, you know, with everything that we do in in the work that we do, there's actually a, you know, there's so much on the internet when you're Googling, you know, things around culture change. So, I actually think, though, the best thing that you can be doing is reaching out to your network and having conversations with people about what they're doing. Because, you know, I think what's important with work in the culture space is actually, how applicable is this stuff? There's a lot of theory out there, and the Edgar Schein theory for us was a really great driver. And actually the um there's the HBR model of culture, which has about seven I think I can't remember exactly. It's about seven that we actually used just to baseline our, you know, original where we were at. And but then we use the Edgar Schein work to help take us forward and help us to focus on how we wanted to progress. But the best learnings that we had was reaching out to our network and talking to people about what they've done, what they've been successful, where the theory has and hasn't worked, what's been what's practically, you know, what what is practical. And so I think, you know, there's so much in culture space around learning from experience that actually just getting out and talking to people, finding people that you are see are doing a great deal great work in that space. Connect with them, talk to them about what they've how they've done it, what their learnings have been, where they things haven't worked, what they would do differently next time. And so I think the, you know, the best thing that you can be doing is is actually talking to others around practical experience.
Jimmy: Fantastic. And and that's actually how you and I connected, wasn't it? Because I admired your work in the culture space. [laughter] And so and I'm always fascinated to nerd out with somebody who knows about culture. Wonderful. Andrea, thank you so, so much for your time today. If you were to give our audience just a key takeaway or something that they should really be paying attention to from what we've discussed today, what would it be?
Andrea: So I think, you know, when you're doing anything with work in the culture space, you can't shortcut involving all your people in some way, or as many of your people as possible in some way. You know, having everybody involved in that culture journey is significant, and is the key to success. And so I think involving all of your people to help you define and shape your culture, and do it in a really inclusive way, I think is how we've been able to be successful so far, and how I hope we continue to be successful, because it's obviously an ongoing journey and we're all still learning, you know. It's not to say that we, you know, we've landed or or whatever. We're still, you know, learning about how we can continue to evolve and improve the the the work we're doing, but you just can't shortcut including as many people as possible in the dialogue and helping everyone to shape that.
Jimmy: Andrea Duncan, I am so thrilled by this conversation, and I know our listeners are going to absolutely love some of the the knowledge bombs or wisdom nuggets that you've shared with us. Thank you so much for taking the time out to spend with us today. We really appreciate it. Thank you so much.
Andrea: Thank you, Jimmy. It's been great. I've really enjoyed it. And I'll talk to you soon.
Jimmy: Speak soon.
Andrea: Thanks.
Outro: That's it for this week's episode of The High Performance Leader. If you enjoyed this episode, please drop a review on whichever platform you listened on. We really appreciate it and it helps us to connect with new listeners. Also, if you haven't already, head to jimmyburroughes.com and download a copy of my latest bestseller, Beat Burnout, Ignite Performance. It's the leader's playbook for building a high-performance culture, and is packed with practical action tips to get you started. Stay tuned for next week's episode of game-changing insights and ideas on The High Performance Leader.