Why Managers Struggle to Drive Change in Complex Teams

Alison: to look into yourself, is really look in the mirror and think about how you are reacting to that change versus responding. It's really being clear of what your strengths are, but where are your areas for development, where do those strengths not shine when you are under pressure of change? I think it's about looking internally, look at yourself first before you expect others to follow.
Jimmy: Welcome back to this week's episode of The High Performance Leader, the podcast for leaders working in complex, challenging environments, to gain insights and ideas which help you increase your impact without burning out, and to help you build a high-performance culture in your team. I'm your host Jimmy Burroughes, and if you're new to The High Performance Leader, make sure you subscribe or follow so you don't miss any of our upcoming episodes before you put down your device.
Jimmy: Hello and welcome back to this week's episode. I am genuinely thrilled this week to have on somebody who I have known and started to really understand a little bit more about her world, and the fascinating world that it is, around transformational change. Um Alison Ness is a global change strategist, a thought leader, a people and culture change specialist, and an executive coach. That's quite a mouthful of experience. And for the last 25 years, she's been delivering future-proofed people strategies through transforming leadership culture and capability to enable growth. She's got this unique mixture of people skills and change leadership skills, which we're going to dive into today. She works with executives and teams to help them reach their full potential and level up uh to grow and thrive in the world of work, both now and in the future. And I am genuinely thrilled to have her on the show today. Alison, welcome.
Alison: Thank you. Well, what an introduction! And I'm super excited to be on this chat with you as well, Jimmy.
Jimmy: Oh wonderful! Well, look, you know, the I said some some pretty tongue-twistery words there in terms of the types of things that you do, and before we I guess dive into deep, what is transformational change, I'd like to ask you just to share a little bit more about some of the intriguing insights that you have picked up through your experiences um and what forms you and who are you.
Alison: Oh, who am I? Well, that's a question I still ask myself uh to be honest. Um, who am I? Well, I think I'm a very curious soul who is really passionate about transformational change leadership, and helping others thrive in an ever-changing world. Really important in today's context uh, which we'll we'll touch on a little bit later on today. Um, my keen interest in culture change, which you've highlighted is is a real passion of mine, is just rooted in in this fascination of observing mindset and behaviours in action, especially in times of change. It's like peering into the heart and soul of an organisation, understanding how individuals think and act, and how these two dynamics can be harnessed to drive successful change. We tend to overlook that, but that's what makes change successful. And if I think about, and I've been pondering on this for a while now, where did that passion come from? Um what created that kind of avenue that's formed my way of thinking, formed the career choices that I've made and just um formed how I operate daily? And for me that defining moment um came uh from a profound realisation of mindset and behaviour, and how it played out when I witnessed the People Power Revolution in the Philippines in, oh wow, a a while back now, in 1986. Um and there I saw the extraordinary power of individual and collective mindset and behaviour in driving sweeping social and political change. And what I saw during that time, and what I experienced first-hand, was the positivity of it, but also the negativity of it. So I was able just to see, and I think that was real my my real realisation, was how the mindset played and how that influenced how people approached change from the conversations that I had in terms of that negative view of, well, we don't we don't know anything different, and we'd rather stay with what we've got uh, which created that resistance to actually the we want change and it's for us to change it, and only us that can change it, that actually drove the change that happened in that country. Um, that and my other experience in my upbringing around um different cultural contexts, as you know I moved countries pretty much every 3 years, um just brought in that unique perspective around how culture manifest change and the pivotal role that it plays over process. Um so that's just a little bit of an insight of who I am and why I'm so passionate about this topic. And it's that that that fusion and the ability to look and think of things systematically, that holistic perspective from my upbringing and my experiences that was able to bring culture and that holistic view really to achieve change goals, and how us as leaders, and I when I talk about leaders, I'm talking about it in the small "l" context. We're all leaders. Um we're all driving change. It's not a positional position or power. Um we can all affect change, and it's that that I believe the change fits with us. It's It's It's us that tries change.
Jimmy: I remember back to our initial conversation, and you were sharing with me some of the places you've lived. And obviously as somebody who's been to 70 countries, I think I'm pretty well-traveled, and then I meet someone like you who and it seems to be all the places that you've lived uh are on my wish list, so [laughter] I'm extremely envious of some of the experiences that you've gained from. And and the same as me, you notice that sort of multicultural lens on culture and how the different levers work in different organisations and different cultures, and the ability to analyse that. I also love that you are bringing the commercial business lens to culture change, and and how transformation can happen in a positive way. Then, you know, a little challenge here for us to work through is change is is not a particularly new concept. You know, change management, change in business, things change in organisations. That's been around for a long time. So why all of a sudden is this concept of transformational change leadership as a game changer becoming such an important thing for leaders to know about?
Alison: Yes. I mean, you know, change is definitely not new, as you know Jimmy. Um and here yet here we are still talking about transformational change leadership as a game changer. Um, and in my view it is a game changer, because it really does place emphasis on the cultural aspects above and beyond process. I think we naturally tend to default to process, it's the hands, it's the it's the um the what rather than the how, which is the heart, which is um, you know, how you lead into change. And if I think about um transformational change, again some aspects of transformation are not new. I mean, change is constant, it's always been there, it will continue to be there. Um yet we're still grappling with it. Um, and and I think the reason why we're grappling with it is we're still dealing with how we respond um versus how we react to change. So yes, the context is a little bit different, but if you think about conversation around AI, for example, um that's the same conversation that we had around the internet coming along. So it's not really any different. Um, but we're still dealing with our reactions to it rather than our response to it. Um and I just think we overlook those cultural elements, those cultural aspects that you and I have just touched on earlier on. And I think when we talk about transformational change leadership, as I referred to a little bit earlier, it's not about a positional statement. Leadership is a privilege not by position, um but it's really around a choice by character. It's how It's how you want to be seen, how you want to actually deal with your own emotions when you're dealing with change, being aware of that, and how you lean into it, which others will look to you for guidance. So I always use the analogy of um, you know, the air hostess on a plane. The minute the air hostess starts to panic, that's when you start to panic uh because everyone's looking at the air hostess. Um, but that's also being, you know, really open about how you feel about the change. Um and I think what we don't do enough yet of is actually being really honest about how we feel about the change, um and what we lean into straightaway is a reaction. And then we kind of jump straight from there to the process, um which doesn't really take people on a journey and really puts the emphasis on us as the change agent and what we can do to set that tone, set that scene for it to be successful. And this is where you and I have had conversations around high performance. What we've talked about quite a bit is that performance is still important for you to be perform to be at your best in times of change, to stay resilient as we're dealing with change upon change upon change, the pace, the complexity, but we're dealing with a whole gamut, more and more of emotions. People are being more open about how they feel. They're being a lot more expressive, and uh what we're finding on the other side is that leaders are challenged by that in terms of, how do I respond to it? And really the angle that I follow or or look into is, how might you explore their potential because that will set the scene for performance.
Jimmy: I'm so fascinated that when we're talking about change leadership, and your beautiful explanation there of the differences, and what I was hearing was that this transformational change leadership is actually far more important about looking inside yourself than what you do to others. And then once you've worked out what's going on inside, you can start to share that and take others with you, and you're not just doing a process. There's a lot of people do change process, but this is actually about almost like changing hearts versus changing heads, isn't it?
Alison: Absolutely. And, you know, a lot of the the questions that, you know, us as leaders as a in a position, but also uh as I said in terms of self-leadership, how often do we pause and ask ourselves, reflect on our own mindset and behaviours? Instead we kind of go, well we're leading others, therefore this is, you know, this is what we need to do. And off we go, and um we basically tell, um the language is very much tell. It's um, "I'm going to create a vision that all of you are going to come behind it, and and uh we're going to achieve this vision together." But no one really stops and goes, "Well, actually my how I'm what I'm thinking and my own behaviours will influence that. It's that followership concept. You can tell someone that your idea is great. You can tell someone that here's the destination, but actually to get people believing in that, um to work with you really requires you to self-reflect your own mindset and behaviours at play. And, you know, I've been in I've had the privilege of working with a lot of people, and and this goes for our myself as well as working with others, right? Where we don't actually create that investment of time and investment in terms of your own self-reflections of your own journey on change, how you react to change, why you react that way to change, what does that reaction look like and how does it play out so that those who are looking at you, those that you are working with to help you solve this problem, um actually feel it. It's a feeling rather than just listening to words. And I just think that we just don't spend enough time reflecting on that. So to your point, why transformational change leadership is a game changer, it's look at yourself first before undertaking any change process.
Jimmy: I think you've brought up a really interesting point there around sometimes it's around taking time to look at yourself before you start doing things to others, but of course many of the challenges that probably most of our listeners have is that time is of a premium, uh and that can be a real challenge for them to make time to be self-reflective, to be introspective, to look at what's going on inside their own hearts before they make a choice or a decision, or they have to act. So that's one challenge. What are some of the other challenges with transformational leadership? Because what I'm hearing is this is great and we should all be doing this, and it's fabulous. But clearly there's some stuff that might also not be so great or is stopping people doing it naturally. What are those challenges?
Alison: I think um and and I'll jump on on to the time um perspective, I think the the challenges are it's that cultural piece. It's really understanding, you know, if you've got a mindset that I just need to get through this or I'll just follow this process and pray that actually I'm going to get the results, it's it's that challenge is how you'll approach it. That challenge, it's about being curious enough to undertake a journey. It's kind of going, "Well, actually, I need to explore myself first. I need to explore how I'm dealing with it, and I need to explore how I can react in a different way by responding rather than reacting." And I think going back to an earlier point, it's a choice. I think, you know, when when we talk about investment of time, it's actually a choice. It's the same thing as investing, and you'll know this from your work, investing time to look after yourself. Well, this is looking after yourself. This is investing time putting oxygen on yourself first and foremost, to kind of go, "What is the change going to need of me first before I can expect it of others? So do I truly believe in the change? Do I truly um believe that this is a a journey, not a destination? Do I truly believe that I can get past my initial thoughts as to whether I buy into this or not?" It's it's asking those self-questions, which is the oxygen mask, and that's a choice. So for me the biggest challenge is your own mindset. Your own mindset, your own willingness to be curious, your own um ability to explore, where can this take you? Point one. And then point two, how open am I going to be to include others into that circle, into that that kind of um into those boundaries because I can't do this alone. And I think what you find with a lot of leaders is this notion, and this is where the mindset comes into play, this notion of, well I can't show I can't show to my team that I'm struggling with this, or I can't show to my team that actually I'm getting really tired of I'm feeling worn down because this is relentless. And I think this notion of, well I can't show that because it will show that I'm weak, and if I'm not kind of carrying the flag, then how can I expect my team to carry the flag? When actually the opposite is true. As you know, and as I've seen, the minute the leader kind of just lets the mask down, the team just welcome it with open arms because they feel that they can articulate how they are feeling as well. And it becomes a problem shared rather than everyone going, "Yes, yes, everything is fine and I'm fine," when that's not the reality at all. Change is hard, and if uh we are on that treadmill, it's only by including others and being really human about it by going, "Yeah, you know what? Today I'm not believing it. I'm not feeling it." And then you get the team to rally behind you, and it's a way of accepting that you can't do this alone. And so mindset plays in all of those elements, but they're stand-alone as well. It's how willing are you to be very open about how you are feeling. So it's really tapping into that emotional aspect, and how willing are you to be really open about it, being vulnerable about it. And not everyone is willing to be vulnerable because it's uncomfortable.
Jimmy: Isn't it? Yeah, I I completely [laughter] I completely resonate, and and it's, you know, it's fascinating to me this is where a lot of our work starts to overlap, and we talk an awful lot about the power of vulnerability in building trust. But also, once you have that trust, there's a massive push to reducing the factors that lead to burnout. When you are in a trusted connected team and you can be vulnerable with one another, so I love this idea of actually well also helping to build culture and change the way we lead, and there's all these amazing things that are happening. So not only are we going to be reducing our burnout, we're going to improve our culture, we're going to improve our business results, we're going to improve our enjoyment of work and we're going to make some positive change. I think we've agreed that there's a win-win here, right?
Alison: Yeah, definitely. And and where I've seen, you know, from our experiences, but I'll share a story, um that deep connection instantly where you achieve all of those things by someone, in this case it was someone in a senior position who was leading the transformation. If I think about it in a business context, when they were leading the transformation program, and as you know, transformations are huge, and, you know, the the from months the the rallying cry was, "We need to change this because of that," and and everyone understood it. But there was a disconnect. Uh there was a disconnect with the leadership team and the executives on that, because they didn't feel that voices were being heard, they didn't feel that they were in it together. And this particular individual shared a personal story, and it wasn't a transformation story, it wasn't a story about how they led a transformation and and what they did that achieved it to be successful.
Jimmy: Hey there, Jimmy here. I just wanted to drop in on this episode and say an enormous thank you for all of the amazing reviews and testimonials and feedback we're getting about the Ways of Working podcast. Top 10% globally and absolutely thrilled to be there bringing as much value as we can from the Ways of Working community to you, our listeners. I wanted to drop a quick note of one of the beautiful reviews that was left by JennyM49. Thank you so much, Jenny, for that kind review. Jenny says, "For those people who want to gain a practical performance edge, full of practical tips in every episode, tune in here." Jenny, we really appreciate your feedback. Thank you so much. And hope that you, our listeners, will follow and subscribe using your favourite podcast platform of choice and bring every episode to share value, knowledge and expertise from our incredible guests. Take care, speak soon.
Alison: They just shared a very personal story about a a situation that they experienced during a times of change um that had a significant impact on them. And it was during a period of change within their context um that something was said to them that basically really hit them in the belly, and questioned their whole values, questioned everything about them. Questioned their own credibility, question I mean, you name it, you know, it was one of those off-the-cuff remarks that in times of stress someone says something to somebody, and it wasn't I mean, this person is a very calm, very considered. So they didn't react to something that was said in a way that was emotional, but it deeply affected him. And the audience listening to that story saw an individual that was leading this huge transformation was very much articulating the what needed to be done, and was considered as actually quite, what's the word? Vanilla, in the sense of not have much emotion, not um share the complexities of dealing with change. And so when he shared his personal story and how it impacted him, there wasn't a dry eye in the house. It Because he not only shared the story, there was a moment in his storytelling where his voice started to quiver, and that instantly the whole room, I just watched the room and they just went quiet. And everyone where they could just feel, they could see the impact that this had on this person. And in a moment, that person changed the perspective of or the the perception that people had often, and straightaway people from then on the the the context of the conversation was, "I need your help because I can't do this alone, and I myself have my own rollercoaster ride." And by sharing that, it just flipped. Everyone connected. They started to have conversations with him because they had something to, you know, relate to, because they were then able to share their own experiences of it. And that was something that we'd worked with him on in terms of, you know, "You're going to have to provide a story deep into that protection box, because actually people are going to want to hear more rather than assume, or rather than play into your fear of actually people are going to think less of me." And in this particular situation, they thought more of him, as we knew that that was going to happen. And the strength of that connection, the strength of instantly people feeling we're in this together, just change the whole tone and changed, you know, the way of of conducting translation from then on. Um so you can I saw well just there the power of that vulnerability, and it's usually what you're fearful of the most, which actually doesn't ring true in practice. And it's just accepting that vulnerability is not a a sign of weakness, it's actually a sign of strength. And how many people have a hundred stories, but they're not willing to share with you once you just enable that door to open a little bit. And I think that's what's missing in transformation and transformational change leadership. It's the ability to connect on a story, on a shared experience. And that requires the leader, the person, to really think about their own mindset at play, and if they're willing to, you know, open the kimono, so to speak, or or let others in in terms of, you know, what's playing out for them, because the result is very different.
Jimmy: I really like the way you articulated that, and I want to echo it because I think it's an important message to get across. Instead of saying, "This is what we need to do, follow me," this is all about saying, "This is what I think is the right answer based on what I know, but I don't think I can do it alone and I do need your help. So, can you come help me and help me make this work, or help me make something work that's going to be better for all of us?" It is that vulnerability that comes through, and opening the kimono, very visual there for a second, but it it's [laughter] It is It's It's that It's that exposing yourself behind the suit of armor that a lot of executives traditionally wear, because they believe they have to be infallible. Well, by that level of seniority, you should know and you should have it perfect, and you should have all the answers. And the reality you can't, and often you can't do that without the people around you.
Alison: No. And I think it's it's playing into that curiosity. It's being open, yes, but it's also being open to the fact that I don't have all the answers. None of us have all the answers regardless of your position level in an organisation. I mean, you talk to CEOs today, you've talked to them, I've talked to them, and they're all sitting scratching their heads going, "You know, we know that change will be always the same, but this is different. Like we're just the the the scale of it, the complexity of it, the pace of it, and just the fact that it's it's not only constant and we're dealing with change fatigue, but we're we're dealing with uncharted waters." The way that we used to approach this, the playbook, as they called it, which I always smile because I go, "Well, the playbook just doesn't exist anymore," and and, you know, we should actually stop talking about a playbook because we are dealing with uncharted waters. And so the curiosity of, "Actually, I don't have all the answers. Help me, i.e., team, we're in this together. Help me work out what the answers are." And and again, you know, my work with with with another I'll just share another story where where I worked with an executive who was going through a a structured change in his um in his um business, and the the what he approached it as was, "We're going through a change because people have not gone through a structured change before, and and therefore this will be quite a a big reaction for people." Um but I took him on a journey uh and his leadership team of, "Actually this starts with you, and you can move all the boxes and names that you want, but how you are behaving is actually causing a change resistance." So, for example, bless them, they had their own offices. So he sat in an office, a glass-windowed office. I didn't think they existed anymore, but in some organisations they do. Uh and his leadership team, i.e., his GMs, were all sitting in a in an office. They didn't have one individually, they had one collectively. And um and I said, "What do you think that gives an impression of to the rest of your teams?" And they had thought about it. They thought it was normal. "Uh well, you know, we've got confidential conversations." I said, "Yeah, that's what meeting rooms are for." So, I put it on to the CEO that if you really want as part of your journey, and in this case it was a structured change, but there were other elements of change associated with it, um I said, "You've really got to change how you are being seen, but also your own mindset of, well I need to have my desk or my my office um for confidentiality reasons." And, you know, I worked with him for uh for a wee while, and hats off to him. Um he was like, "Right, I know you're going to bring the sledgehammer to the um to the office." He used to have a laugh about it. And I said, "Yeah, when you're ready." And he said, "Well, I'm a bit nervous um because it's just not something that I've done before." So I said, "Okay, what is it that you're nervous about?" And he said, "Well, you know, this whole being out in the open." He was more worried about being out in the open and the distractions, and all of that. And I worked with him in terms of all of those fears, and I said, "Do you know what? Give it give it a go. Let's just try that, and give it a go." Anyway, roll on a few weeks later of us um going ahead with it, he was smiling like a Cheshire cat because for him, he felt that instant connections and he could actually hear what was going on on the on the floor. And he went, "Wow! I didn't I didn't appreciate some of these conversations, and I wanted to be closer to the people. Um, and actually I'm now enjoying walking past the desks and actually hearing and having those conversations, and and actually understanding what challenges they're facing into, and how I might be able to support." So again, it was just changing that mindset of, oh no I can't because I'd be seen as less effective or less knowledgeable. Um, and really understanding that the "I" doesn't exist anymore, it's the "we", and being an island, you know, an island can only stay an island for so long before waves crash over it. So it's it's just kind of changing that that perspective. And going back to an earlier point, we just don't invest enough time on how might we or what what would that look like, and breaking down all of those fears, as well as that curiosity of, well just let's give it a go. I mean, we can change it if it's not working, but let's give it a go. Let's try it. So we get we tend to fall back to process and rules, and boundaries, and kind of put these constraints on ourselves rather than the art of possibility and that more positive language.
Jimmy: The thing that amazes me out of that as well is that we put constraints and choices and decisions on ourselves that don't even serve or make us happy. We It's almost like we keep going back in, [laughter] keep running and put and headbutting the wall because that's what we've always done. And yet it it amazes me. I have very similar conversations in many contexts.
Alison: Yeah.
Jimmy: And that leads us nicely to one of my final questions, Alison, which is there's obviously, you know, a lot is changing in the world right now and transformational change leadership is becoming a key skill for the future of leadership. What are some of those trends and developments that you're seeing in being a transformational change leader that you could share with us?
Alison: I think that the trends and developments is, you know, back to my earlier point, um it's getting harder out there. Um, I think people will revert to type in the sense of that as you deal with more and more change, and and we've touched on actually the real enemy is change fatigue more and more. Um, so what happens with that is more and more the behaviours play into that. The more tired you get, um the more reactionary you become, the more emotional in terms of this is too hard, it's a too hard basket. And so when you think about um, you know, we need to lean into that more and more, recognise it for what it is, lean into that investment more and more, um and really explore the fear and as you said, what's limiting the beliefs, what's what's limiting the possibility. That is, for me, when I think about future trend, you know, it's still an evolving field, and you have, as with change, you have some that are very open to it and dive in feet first and go, "Yes, um I see it, and help me. How might I Help me navigate through it." Um, and then you have those that go, "Oh, you know what? Heard it before. Don't look here. No problem. I think I do really well in this space," or it's still a little bit pink and fluffy uh because it's to do with, you know, feelings and emotions, and, you know, I don't want to go there quite frankly. Just tell me what I need to do and let's get on with it. So you've got those different So it is an evolving fee- field. And I think the evolving trend is really and and the challenge that we've got is we hear these words over and over again, so leading with empathy and leading with authenticity. And I just want to pause for a minute, because I know you and I have had conversations about this. Empathy is very different to sympathy. And what you're finding is that everyone is falling into that sympathy bucket. And and what I mean by that is empathy is understanding what someone is experiencing, whereas sympathy is actually taking that emotional context onto yourself. So sympathy is about, you know, taking on that that emotional response, uh whereas empathy kind of draws a line and goes, "Look, I hear you, and I share what you are experiencing. Then how might we actually start to to show some direction into that positive, coming out of that victim mentality," uh which is normal of someone going through change. But you've got to recognise your own. Are you a sympathy uh owner or are you an empathy? And those are the questions that we need to keep asking our ourselves. And then the other the other bit around authenticity, you know, we hear a lot, "Be yourself," but people are not being themselves. So it's really putting that to the test. Those are emerging emerging trends. That is what is going to set you apart. That is what is going to make transformation change, uh which isn't stopping, actually successful. Um, and the other one is flipping to an abundance-mind- abundance mindset. Um, like you said, constraints, we've very much turned to the negative side instead of, "Well, what could that look like? What would be the possibility in that? How might I um do this differently?" and being really open to it, the journey, not the destination, as I call it.
Jimmy: Beautifully articulated. And, you know, we could probably go on for a long time talking about the role of AI, and hybrid working and and how the mental health um challenges that people are now encountering in the workplace as leaders, they can all have these big impacts on the way that you're making choices in the way you lead. But if you were to leave our listeners with one sound bite or one idea of everything we've spoken about today when we're talking about transformational change leadership, what would that be?
Alison: To me, it's look into yourself. It's really look in the mirror and think about how you you are reacting to that change versus responding. It's really being clear of what your strengths are, but where are your areas for development, where do those strengths not shine when you are under pressure of change? I think it's about looking internally, look at yourself first. That would be my sound bite, before you expect others to follow.
Jimmy: I love that. And I'm I'm a great advocate of doing the um the the self-thermometer [laughter] activity. I don't know if you know this one, the self-thermometer. What am I like at 80%? What am I like at 100% when I'm close to burnout? And often many of those same tendencies start to come up when I'm experiencing pressure due to change and things either feeling like they're being done to me or I've got to do something that I'm uncomfortable with, some of those same tendencies come out. So, uh yeah, we could we could go on for literally uh days, I think, talking about this, Allison. [laughter]
Alison: I know. And it's not easy, right? It's it's a journey. It's a journey. I mean, we both you and I have talked about applying that own mindset to our own how how we deal with change. And, you know, one step forward, two steps back sometimes, but it's being really aware of that's the intent and and conscious of that, so yeah.
Jimmy: Agreed. And it and it's it's fitness, you know, you've got to build up your leadership fitness to be able to do these things, and that means you're not going to be an Olympic-class um sprinter the first time. It's going You're going to be the the wobbly one at the park run trying to get to grips with some of the techniques, and it can be clunky at first. But if you start, you can only get better. It's like this podcasting game, you can only get better by doing more of it. [laughter] Um if people wanted to reach out to you and connect, Alison, what is the best way for them to do that?
Alison: The easiest way is just through LinkedIn. On my LinkedIn profile there's there's um all my details in terms of reaching out, and uh people do so that way. It's the easiest way of doing it. So that would be my suggestion, just to start that conversation and help um teams that are needing, or individuals who need to go through that that process of really understanding themselves. And I think to your earlier point, what is different that I bring to the table is understanding the transformational change context and helping them navigate through change. Um so it's really from that lens and looking at that cultural side. But, um yeah, LinkedIn would be the easiest way of connecting with me.
Jimmy: Beautiful, and we will pop Alison's details in the show notes right below this episode so you can reach out to her directly and have a conversation. Or indeed reach out to us here at The High Performance Leader podcast, and we can connect you through. Alison, it's been genuinely fascinating to listen to so many It's almost like having a mirror shined up to us on some of the work we do in the culture space, but having that kind of meeting of the minds on some of the benefits, but also some of the challenges and some of the ways through those challenges for leaders who want to become transformational change leaders. Thank you so much for joining us, I really appreciate it. And uh look forward to keeping in touch on the new and improved, exciting journey that you're going on yourself through transformational change, I guess.
Alison: Thank you, Jimmy, and the pleasure's all mine. I've really thoroughly enjoyed uh connecting with you, and uh having this conversation today, and I look forward to chatting with you some more. [laughter]
Jimmy: Thanks, Alison.
Jimmy: That's it for this week's episode of The High Performance Leader. If you enjoyed this episode, please drop a review on whichever platform you listened on. We really appreciate it, and it helps us to connect with new listeners. Also, if you haven't already, head to jimmyburroughes.com and download a copy of my latest best seller, Beat Burnout, Ignite Performance. It's the leader's playbook for building a high-performance culture, and is packed with practical action tips to get you started. Stay tuned for next week's episode of game-changing insights and ideas on The High Performance Leader.