How managers handle abrasive leaders without harming teams

Bonnie: people who have their back, who genuinely care about them, care about their success, and are willing to tell them the truth even when it may be hard to hear. And that personally, I have those people in my life, and I treasure them. And is it hard to hear some things? Sometimes absolutely, that's how I know I grow.
Jimmy: Welcome back to this week's episode of The High Performance Leader, the podcast for leaders working in complex, challenging environments, to gain insights and ideas which help you increase your impact without burning out, and to help you build a high-performance culture in your team. I'm your host, Jimmy Burroughes. And if you're new to The High Performance Leader, make sure you subscribe or follow so you don't miss any of our upcoming episodes before you put down your device.
Hello, and welcome back to this week's show of the Ways of Working podcast. I am absolutely thrilled to be welcoming Bonnie Artman Fox to the Ways of Working podcast today. She is the uh workplace conflict expert at A Conscious Choice. She's also, fascinatingly, an accredited boss whisperer, and we're going to find out all about what that means in just a few minutes. Bonnie, welcome to the show. It's an absolute joy to have you with us.
Bonnie: Oh, thank you Jimmy. It's an absolute honour to be here.
Jimmy: So, Bonnie, we've got a lot to talk about today. And one of the things that I think is important for all of our listeners to know is, how did you get to this point as an accredited boss whisperer? What's the backstory that led you to be an expert in conflict and bullying, and abrasive leadership?
Bonnie: Well, actually, there were two significant events that happened. The first was way back in one of my very first jobs, I found myself working for an abrasive leader. I didn't have that type, you know, know that at the time of that's what was happening. But, I just knew the upset stomach, the sleepless nights, the headaches that I was having as a result of working for this leader and in this dysfunctional workplace. And, I blamed myself. I thought it was that I didn't know enough, this was my very first leadership position. And, I did the most logical thing, I did went to therapy. To figure out how do I cope with this situation. Now, call me crazy, I knew I could have quit the job. However, I really loved the work. And I also knew that this was an opportunity for my own growth. And it was through therapy that I've learned to change the only person I could change, which was me. And learning to be more assertive, standing up for myself while also navigating the landmines around this leader. I stayed in that position for 18 months, continued to work on myself and eventually was offered a different job within the organisation with a significant pay increase, and started working for a boss that I'm still in touch with to this day. So, that experience taught me what it's like to work for an abrasive leader. Then fast forward sever- several years later, when I had my own private practice as a licensed marriage and family therapist, I started working with these leaders on a personal level where they came into my office because of marital problems or problems with their family, strained relationship with their children. And that's when I really saw behind the scenes all the pain that they were going through, the woundedness, if you will, um that was driving their behaviour. There was one of the most rewarding things I did of working with those leaders on a more personal level. And about 11 years ago, I moved from Illinois and to now the Pittsburgh area, and was at a crossroads in my career that, okay, what do I want to do? And I decided that I wanted to go directly into the workplace to help these leaders develop the interpersonal skills and replace the abrasive behaviour with emotional intelligence skills. And uh so that's how I got to what I'm doing today, and it is an absolute joy and privilege.
Jimmy: Such a fascinating topic to get into. And you know, one of the things I'd love to help our audience understand, Bonnie, is, what exactly is an abrasive leader? And how does that differ from what we might consider maybe as a bully?
Bonnie: You know, it's a great question because the impact of both a bully and abrasive leader is very much the same. The impact in terms of the overly aggressive behaviour, the condescending comments, the uh micromanaging. The key difference is the abrasive leader lacks the self-awareness of what they're doing. Their main focus is getting the job done. And whoever gets in their way is who they will attack. Versus a bully tends to be aware of what they're doing, and tends to have a- a target, a person that they are zeroing in on that the abrasive uh condescending micromanaging behaviour is targeted towards.
Jimmy: That's interesting, and for many people, they may have worked with an abrasive leader who maybe doesn't realise it, because they're so focused on getting the job done, they're so motivated and they're often recognised and promoted into those positions because they deliver. So, that can cause a bit of challenge for people who are experiencing that type of leader, right?
Bonnie: Absolutely. And it is often times the top performer who is promoted because they're so good at what they do. And at the same time, what is minimised is how they treat people. In terms of the condescending comments, the micromanaging, the overreaction going from 0 to 10 in a matter of seconds, the public humiliation in terms of yelling at people in the staff meeting or in the hallway, those behaviours tend to be overlooked, sadly, because the individual is such a top performer or a revenue generator for the organisation, or has expert knowledge that the executive team doesn't want to get rid of because of the money that they make for the organisation or the clients that they have that the executive team doesn't want to lose.
Jimmy: Yeah, I've seen I've seen instances of this in professional services firms where the high billers or the the the more senior partners have got there because they have this abrasive, aggressive tendency, and they do deliver and they do do bring in the money, and then the the cost of the people working for them could be quite significant. So so let's go there. Let's talk about the cost of having people like this in your organisation, whether it's you or whether it's somebody who is in your senior leadership team.
Bonnie: Uh Christine Porath and Christine Pearson have done phenomenal research about the cost of incivility, and they have found that employees who are on the receiving end of an abrasive leader have a decrease of 48% decreased effort. Um 80% of work time is then spent worrying about the incident or the the aftermath of when they were yelled at, 63% avoid the offender. These are just some of the examples of how the abrasive behaviour impacts employees, the emotional and mental wellbeing of employees and their ability to then focus, uh be productive, meet deadlines, as well as the overall wellbeing of the culture. Uh so it is it's while the top performer may make the company a lot of money, there is the cost on the emotional wellbeing and the suffering that employees go through that leads also to turnover.
Jimmy: Yeah, and I think I think that's a a core point that if you've got all of these employees living in fear of this abrasive leader, they're never going to be able to perform at their best. We talk a lot about the the cortisol reaction and people's prefrontal cortex shutting down when the amygdala is triggered, and all of these pieces that essentially turn them from wizards into lizards. Um, we use those two pieces of the brain to talk about people who are in a fear response, but essentially, you're reducing their productivity, their capability to deliver their best work, their ability to problem-solve. And, yeah, so you're maybe channelling your expectations into one senior leader who's doing great work, but their team is not able to support them effectively, or you're only getting, as you say, 48% or 52% of their capability um because 48% is switched off completely. That's a huge cost to a business.
Bonnie: Yes. And the impact of psychological safety of the uh entire culture. Um when I work with abrasive leaders, we talk about the TAD dynamic, meaning when a leader perceives a threat, whether real or imagined, so let's say they're concerned about a deadline being met, their anxiety goes up and they react with the fight, flight, or freeze response. So, that's the TAD, threat, anxiety, defend. The work that I do with them is helping them to work through that anxiety. Now, when they're not working through that anxiety, their TAD is elevated, and everybody else is TAD in the work culture. Everyone is on hyperalert, and there is minimal psychological safety. As you're saying, everyone is on edge, never knowing when the next outburst will come.
Jimmy: Yeah, I mean, I've I've worked with and for leaders who have been going through that repeatedly. And I think, at times, probably I, as a leader, was was in those circumstances where I probably pushed a bit too hard because I wanted to get the result because I was fearful of having to go back to the executive and saying, "I'm sorry, we couldn't deliver that" for whatever reason. And so it can creep up on you, right?
Bonnie: Yes.
Jimmy: How do you start to address that and intervene with these abrasive leaders? And, and we'll talk a little bit more about the risks versus benefits, but how do you start that conversation, initially, with somebody to say, "You've been identified as an abrasive leader", or, you know, what's the words you use? Because I don't think that would land very well.
Bonnie: Well, it takes the manager of the abrasive leader to have the willingness to have that conversation. And in essence, to have a conversation of, "Uh we've noticed a pattern of the of and are receiving complaints from our employees about negative perceptions of working with you. And we care about you. We want to help you turn this around. This isn't okay. And we want to offer you help." Now, ideally, they have been speaking to their leader, the abrasive leader, on a regular basis to bring to the awareness that th- this behaviour isn't okay. It's when they're If an abrasive leader can turn things around on their own, they would. More often than not, they're not able to because they genuinely lack the self-awareness of recognising the impact of their words and actions on others. That doesn't make them bad people. I have I love working with them. I find they're very deep down inside, very tender-hearted, and they care deeply about their work, and don't want to be perceived in this way. They genuinely lack self-awareness, and that's what the coaching helps them with.
Jimmy: Interesting. So, actually these people are good people. They're caring people, maybe caring too much about their own performance and the performance of their team. It's just the way that the behaviours manifest can can sometimes be a challenge to those around them.
Bonnie: Yes.
Jimmy: So it takes that co- confidence and courage of the leader of that person, interesting. And, you know, what are some of the risks and benefits of starting that conversation with the abrasive leader? Because you, I'm thinking it could go one of two or three ways, right?
Bonnie: Yes. So, the risk is the abrasive leader will deny it, and turn a- things around to blame the manager of it's their fault or it's everyone else's fault and I often hear people, "People are lazy, people are stupid, that they just need to develop a thicker skin", those type of things. There's also the risk of retaliation uh to the point that the abrasive leader genuinely is in such denial about their behaviour that there is a concern that they will retaliate in some way. Or leave, and take again their revenue generation, their clients with them. Those are the the main risks. The benefit is giving this leader the opportunity to turn around this behaviour. To not only help them, but also to help stop the employee suffering who are the recipients of the abrasive leader's behaviour. Another benefit is preventing a PR disaster or a lawsuit because of this the leader's behaviour, and protecting the brand reputation of the organisation. And also the benefit of retaining other good employees as a result of taking action. What is so so cool, as I go through the coaching process with the uh abrasive leaders, and I and I'm interviewing their coworkers with their permission along the way, what I often hear from the employees: "I have such respect for my organisation, for the executive leadership team who had the courage to take action." And their desire to want to stay with the organisation skyrockets because they see they work for an employer who's willing to protect the culture of the organisation, and stop the suffering that employees have gone through.
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And, and mean so, they become stickier to the organisation. They're even more likely to stay and talk about the positives of that culture because oh, the leadership team did something about it. You know, I love that.
Bonnie: Yes.
Jimmy: A lot of the work we do is with organisations who are either struggling to recruit talent, or are struggling to retain talent for um a- a multiple number of reasons. Often, burnout being the cause, and burnout is often exacerbated by abrasive leaders because they're heaping expectations on their team. And maybe they're also burned-out themselves, which is why they're in this, I think you called it this TAD reaction. So, and presumably, another benefit of this having this conversation, going through these coaching sessions, is that the leader is going to keep their team. Well, that reduces the stress on them, for, "Oh, my goodness, we're short-staffed. I have to push everybody harder. I have to recruit. I'm being taken off the things that I know are important because I've got to replace members of my team." I can see a lot of opportunity and upside in in what you're what you're working on here, Bonnie.
Bonnie: Yes. And another thing that comes out, other people then, the employees are more aware of how they're showing up. As they see the transformation in their once abrasive leader, they're saying, "Well, I've got to pay more attention to how I'm showing up in my behaviour." So, there's a very it's a very positive ripple effect that it has on the entire culture.
Jimmy: Tell us more about that. Have you got a specific story, or uh a case study of an intervention where you've gone through this and you've seen that massive upside happen?
Bonnie: Uh yes, uh just in the last uh year and a half, I've had the privilege of of working with a leader who the uh executive leaders were very clear when they intervened uh with this leader, and said, "We care about you. We want you here. We've spoken to you several times about this behaviour. This can't go on. And we want to offer you help through coaching." And the abrasive leader was receptive, though a little sceptical at first, as more often than not they are, like, "I'm, you know, they're not looking for my services." But, we started working together, and I say, "I, I don't work here. I don't know what's going on, consider me your co-researcher. And would you please give me permission to interview 6 to 8 of your coworkers to understand the negative perceptions of working with you." And so that's what they do, is they they give permission, and then I do 360 interviews with these coworkers. And from those interviews, I'm identifying the themes of the negative perceptions of working with them. I take out all identifying information and compile those interviews into a feedback summary, and I share that then with the abrasive leader, only with the abrasive leader. It's very important that they know the only person I share that with is them. That this is not a tool that's going to be used against them, that I would share that with the HR department or or the organisation. And that feedback summary then becomes our playbook of helping them replace the abrasive behaviour with healthy emotional intelligence interpersonal skills. And they initially, as you can imagine, when we go over that feedback summary-
Jimmy: I can imagine, yeah.
Bonnie: It's pretty tough. It's pretty tough to to see in uh black and white, in writing, the negative perceptions. It includes their strengths, it also includes the themes of the negative perceptions. And more often than not, I hear, "This isn't who I want to be." And that is their motivation to then participate in the coaching and make that concerted effort to manage their TAD and develop those healthy interpersonal skills.
Jimmy: Wow. Wow, it must be extremely powerful to be confronted by some of those statements, and as you say, "That's not who I want to be"
Bonnie: Yes.
Jimmy: is a really great start point for, then who do you want to be? And how do we get you there? Um I I really like that that that avenue in.
Bonnie: Exactly.
Jimmy: What And, so this obviously we've we've talked about the the case study that you did, and and often it requires the senior leadership team to identify and address this directly. What if maybe I'm the CEO, I'm on the senior leadership team, and there is nobody who's identifying me as an abrasive leader, and so I don't realise I've got some of these tendencies? I've got where I am because of how I do stuff uh and clearly that's worked because here I am. What if I don't realise? And what are some of the signals I could potentially look for which might help me identify that I have some abrasive characteristics or tendencies?
Bonnie: Yes. Well, ideally, that executive leader, CEO, has a circle of people around them who are willing to tell them the truth, and that they have the humility and openness and willingness to hear the truth of how they come across. And it may be in their overreaction, in how they manage their anger when things don't go their way, it may be micromanaging, it may be a pattern of yelling at staff meetings or again in the hallway or board meetings, the unpredictability of their mood, it may be favouritism, it may be condescending comments, the tone, that ideally they have people around them who are willing to give them that honest feedback. And sadly, again, because many times leaders in that position of that level may not be surrounding themselves with people, but that would be the first step that I would encourage that leader to have people around them, and I'm not talking about a lot of people, even just a handful of people who they know will be truth-tellers to them. People who have their back, who genuinely care about them, care about their success, and are willing to tell them the truth even when it may be hard to hear. And that personally, I have those people in my life, and I treasure them. And is it hard to hear some things? Sometimes absolutely, that's how I know I grow, and um and and to be better myself. So, that's where I would encourage executive leaders, CEOs to start.
Jimmy: I love that. And I think we could almost go one step beyond, that if I don't have any of those people, if I don't have an executive team that I have a high level of trust and vulnerability with, uh if I have high turnover in my executive team, if people keep leaving my business, if my engagement survey results are low, they may be some indicators as well that there might be a problem, and maybe I'm the common factor in all those things.
Bonnie: I'm the common denominator there.
Jimmy: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And so, if I suddenly realise, "Oh, maybe maybe the problem is me, maybe the problem is some of the behaviours that I'm I'm reacting in a negative way," what sort of feedback could I go and seek that and specific questions that that I could potentially ask of those people around me that is going to start the ball rolling for me?
Bonnie: I learned this question several years ago. I don't remember who I initially heard it from, so whoever initially said this, I want to whoever you are, give you credit. The question was, "What's it like to be on the other side of me?"
Jimmy: Oh, that's a good question.
Bonnie: Isn't that a good question? I wish I could take credit of it, but no, it's somebody else. And I read Insight by Tasha Eurich, it's a fabulous book about self-awareness. And in she talks about she has a statistic that 95% of people think they're self-aware, when in actuality, only 10 to 15% of people are actually self-aware. And that question, "What's it like to be on the other side of me?" is a way to again lift the blinders of we may think we're self-aware, but if we're really honest, and allowing people who are within our trusted circle, or who we believe will be truth-tellers with us, to ask answer that question, it can really be eye-opening.
Jimmy: Wow. I I love that a lot, and I think you I mean, certainly, as somebody who's spent many years working on my own self-awareness, I know that I'm still probably just scratching the surface of what other people see, so that's a lovely question, "What's it like to be on the other side of me?" Bonnie, this has been such an interesting conversation and I genuinely really want to continue for for many hours, and I know that there are people who will be interested in the work you're doing. If they would like to reach out and get in touch with you, what's the best way to to connect?
Bonnie: Uh my website is bonnieartmanfox.com. I also have a gift for your listeners. They can go to leadershipturnaround.com, and at that web address, they can uh get a resource called uh Executive SOS: 5 Ways to Eliminate Abrasive Behaviour With Your Top Performers. And that resource outlines the coaching process of turning around abrasive behaviour. And I'm also on LinkedIn, so I would love to connect with your listeners there as well.
Jimmy: Fantastic, I will make sure that we pop the links to all of those in the show notes below this episode. And you also have an amazing book, let's talk about the book.
Bonnie: Oh, thank you. It's called, How Did My Family Get in My Office?
Jimmy: And what's that all about then?
Bonnie: Uh well, part of it comes from uh was prompted by my own journey of uh having worked for an abrasive leader that led me into therapy, and some of my own family dynamics uh were showing up in the office that uh led to my own growth in in self-awareness. And as I started working with people uh as from therapy perspective, I began to see this theme of how challenges that people had in the workplace were similar to the challenges they had in their family upbringing. So, I um interviewed 11 different leaders and asked them for their story of what it was like for them growing up of how conflict was handled, and how it impacted how they deal with conflict as a leader. And then as they gained that self-awareness, what did they do to change the pattern for the better? And at the end of their chapter, they provided several productive conflict management strategies that were meaningful for them to improve their conflict style for the better, and how their of how their family was in their office and how uh what they did about it.
Jimmy: Wow, sounds like a a fascinating read.
Bonnie: It It was it just truly was it's just been a highlight of my career to have met these leaders, and their entrusting me with their stories. And all of them have fictitious names, uh but the stories are very real. They had the final say on the chapter, and several of them told me that they had never talked about that before. Uh so it was so such a privilege for to be entrusted with their story, and for the privilege of of sharing it so other leaders could benefit of gaining self-awareness of all how their family upbringing has impacted their conflict style. And that relates to abrasive leaders, that often times, there is some unresolved hurt, wound, uh scar that's um that's not been addressed that is often times driving the abrasive behaviour, that that drive to get results and to be competent is often coming from a wound. And there's I just want to convey hope that change is possible, that healing is possible, and uh the abrasive leaders can change patterns and turn around that behaviour.
Jimmy: That's so fantastic. And if you wanted to leave our listeners with one nugget or one sound bite of um everything we've spoken about today, what would that be?
Bonnie: If you are a manager listening to this, an executive who you know you have a top performer who exhibits abrasive behaviour and you've been afraid to intervene, have that conversation, and care enough to confront. You will help your abrasive leader transform, and you will stop the suffering in your workplace.
Jimmy: Bonnie Artman Fox, what a rich conversation about conflict, about abrasive leaders, about strategies to deal with it. Thank you so much for joining us, I really appreciate it.
Bonnie: Thank you Jimmy, it's been an absolute privilege and honour.
Jimmy: That's it for this week's episode of The High Performance Leader. If you enjoyed this episode, please drop a review on whichever platform you listened on. We really appreciate it, and it helps us to connect with new listeners. Also, if you haven't already, head to jimmyburroughes.com and download a copy of my latest best seller, Beat Burnout, Ignite Performance. It's the leader's playbook for building a high-performance culture, and is packed with practical action tips to get you started. Stay tuned for next week's episode of game-changing insights and ideas on The High Performance Leader.