How managers lead teams when innovation feels uncertain

Robin: When it comes to innovation, do the opposite of your instincts. You are an amazing operator. That is how you got to a leadership role. When you're asked to innovate, just do the opposite of your instincts, and you'll be surprised how far you get. Jimmy: Welcome back to this week's episode of The High Performance Leader, the podcast for leaders working in complex, challenging environments, to gain insights and ideas which help you increase your impact, without burning out, and to help you build a high performance culture in your team. I'm your host, Jimmy Burroughes, and if you're new to The High Performance Leader, make sure you subscribe or follow so you don't miss any of our upcoming episodes before you put down your device. Hello, and welcome back to this week's episode of The High Performance Leader. This week, I think you're going to enjoy the episode that we've put together, because we're inviting an extremely special guest along, Robyn Bolton. Robyn is the founder and chief navigator at MileZero, and they're a consultancy that help leaders of $100 million-plus companies use innovation to confidently, repeatedly grow revenue. She's previously worked at some incredible organisations, Innosight, BCG, Procter & Gamble, where she helped develop and launch Swiffer, I have one of those in my cupboard. Robyn holds an MBA from Harvard, and also a bachelor's in marketing from Miami University. Her articles and perspectives have been featured in Fast Company, HBR Online, New York Times, and NPR's Marketplace. She really is an absolute global expert in the world of innovation and customer centricity, and we're going to hear a little bit more about some of those things today. Robyn, welcome to the show. It's an absolute joy to have you here. Robyn: Thank you. It is an absolute joy to be here. Jimmy: Robyn, I obviously, we're going to find out a lot more about some of your experience, but tell us a little bit about, how did you get to this point, working with MileZero, or founding MileZero, should I say? How did you get to this point in that really fascinating world of innovation? Robyn: Yeah. Well, like so many stories, there's a fair bit of luck in there as well. So, coming right out of undergrad, you know, where I went to school, Miami University, not in Florida, in Ohio, nearby Cincinnati, where P&G is located. So, market, you know, I had a marketing degree, P&G recruited me, and and it just so happened to be at a time when Procter was really investing in building new brands. So, straight out of undergrad, I got hired into an innovation team, and, you know, quite honestly, a year later, was, you know, announcing the launch of Swiffer to the sales team. So, an absolutely incredible kind of first year out in the real world, working on innovation in a big company. And I just I loved it. I I loved the challenge of it. I loved the highs and lows of it. I loved everything about it, and have made it my career ever since. So, you know, like you said, I spent several years at P&G, then got my MBA at Harvard, then worked at Boston Consulting Group, and then went to Innosight, which is the firm founded by Clayton Christensen, perhaps kind of best known as the author of The Innovator's Dilemma, father of disruptive innovation, and that's where I got to really see the other side. You know, I'd done innovation in a big company, then I got to advise leaders in companies in all sorts of industries on how to innovate. And, again, loved the challenge of it, and that's really then what spurred founding MileZero. Jimmy: Wow, what a fascinating runway into into have worked, as you say, with Clayton Christensen. An absolute gift in terms of learning from the best. I think that's that's incredible. You know, to me innovation is a bit of a quandary, because often, people think they are being innovative, but are just reinventing the wheel, or making a better film camera. Give us a little bit of an insight. First of all, what would you define as the definition of innovation and the things it creates? Robyn: Yeah, it's a great question, and it's in some ways it's kind of this wonderful, you know, challenge, unanswerable, but very answerable question. So, the way I define innovation is that it's something new that creates value. And it's an intentionally short definition with a lot of different potential meanings. And the reason it's intentionally that way is because I think people really get hung up on, "Oh, well innovation has to be something completely new to the world that no one has ever seen before." And that's a really high bar. That's also what invention is. So, like, well, that's that word is already taken, that is invention. So, what is innovation compared to invention? And, for me, the biggest difference between the two, innovation and invention, is that innovation has to create value. So, an innovation is something, but it doesn't have to be a new product. It can be a service. It can be a process. I mean, you think the Toyota Production System, kind of the 5 Whys, an incredible innovation, but it's a process. So, something can, in a lot of ways, be anything. New can certainly be new to the world. It can also be new to your industry. I mean, so many disruptive innovations are actually kind of bringing something from one industry into a different industry. It can even be, you know, new to a company. So, yes, it has to be new, but the bar is a more attainable. And then value, certainly, I always say, value, at least part of it, has to be financially measured. I mean, businesses they're in business. Like, money is part of the conversation, we can't ignore it, but it doesn't have to be constrained to just revenue or profit. It can and should look at things like, you know, how do your employee satisfaction, customer satisfaction, you know, even going so far as like sustainability, you know, human rights, workers' rights, but there has to be a kind of financially quantitative component to value. So, that's how I define the buzzword innovation. Small, short definition, lots of different variations. Jimmy: I like what you said that it doesn't have to be invention. So, we're not necessarily being transformative when we're innovating, we could be being iterative. But, equally, has to add that extra value, has to be some new thing, or new process, or new service that creates that bottom-line value. Otherwise, we're just dabbling potentially. Robyn: Right. Jimmy: Now, I have a question for you which revolves around one of possibly the biggest challenges to innovation in organisations, which is, when you are innovating, you're essentially stepping into something unknown, but leaders have this paradox, because many of them have been promoted to where they are because they're the expert in their field, or because they know all of the unknowns, or they know all of the knowns, should I say, in their area, their area of expertise. And so there's this tension being created between, "I'm the expert, and I need to the then now go and discover some unknowns." What What's your experience with that type of context, and how leaders can work best through that? Robyn: You absolutely put your finger on the pulse of innovation is not an idea problem, it's a leadership problem, for exactly the reasons that you just said, is that leaders get to where they are, they get to their leadership positions, because they are amazing at what they do. You know, they're able to quickly solve problems. They're able to anticipate all the things that can go wrong. They are experts. And then you say to them, "Okay, in addition to operating and running this business and being amazing at what you do, we want you to go innovate, which is the exact opposite of everything you have ever done. And, yeah, please do both." Asking somebody to do two completely opposite things, sometimes like from one meeting to the next, is just horrifically unfair. I mean, I don't think any of us could do it. But yet, that is what we ask of of leaders, and then, when leaders do what any rational person would do, which is say, "Well, you know, being an expert, you know, telling my team what to do, all of these behaviours that have made me amazing in operations, I'll go do them over here in innovation," and those are the exact wrong things. And so that's that's why innovation is such a leadership problem, it's this paradox. And we don't prepare leaders for it. I don't think we even acknowledge that, "Hey, you know, what you do in in your operating job is totally different than innovating." So, whereas you have answers, over here, in innovation, we need you to have questions. Where you, you know, tell people what to do, and can anticipate changes, and prepare for them over in operations, you need to trust your team, and follow their lead, and prepare for a little bit of everything before you decide which route to go down. You know, we don't acknowledge the difference, we don't prepare leaders for the difference, and in a lot of ways that's unfair, and that's what's getting in the way of companies innovating. Jimmy: Yeah, I mean I recall this from my days in corporate world, being a GM, moving between operational performance meetings, you know, what are the KPIs for the week and how are we going to close the deal, and whatever it might be, into transformation meetings, where we'd be trying to innovate entire new processes. And I got some great advice, and let me test this with you, because it might be something that our listeners can also benefit from. When we were in the operations meetings, I remember the the CEO sat in with us, and he said, "Jimmy, your job in this meeting is to lead the room. It's to make sure we get the outcome. When we go into the transformation meetings, your job is to facilitate the conversation." And I thought it was a really nice way to differentiate my approach. One is, okay, not necessarily being directive, but it's to lead the meeting. Whereas, when I'm in the transformation meeting, it's very much to, as you say, ask questions, explore together, set up activities that allow people to be creative, and to facilitate. And I guess that's how I ended up where I am now as a facilitator, it's because I really enjoy that side of it, is, how do we change the ways of working, and change the behaviours that we have, versus just telling people how to make this process more efficient and more effective? Does Does that resonate for you? Robyn: Yes. Oh, that resonates deeply, and I love I love how clear it is, cuz it's it's so true. When you're in that operating meeting, in that space where you have more knowledge than assumptions, absolutely lead that meeting. You know, lead the people in that meeting, that's what you're expected to do, that's what you need to do. But when you're in that transformation or that innovation setting, where you have more assumptions than knowledge, I love it. It's facilitating, and making sure that every perspective is heard, and all the questions get asked, because, especially in innovation, you'll make so much more progress, and make it faster, with the right questions, versus quickly coming up with kind of whatever best answer is right at the moment. Jimmy: And so, if I'm a listener and I'm thinking, "Well, you know, I am an expert. I was promoted because of my sales expertise, or my financial expertise. How can I start to prepare myself?" Because what we're seeing as an organisation, and I'm sure you probably find the same, is that many leaders are not prepared to facilitate that conversation, they're still in lead and expert mode. How do I upskill myself, prepare myself, learn some new things to be able to transition between those two different phases of operating? Robyn: Well, first, congratulations for being amazing and being an expert. Second, you've already started. Simply by acknowledging that you may need to operate you do need to operate differently, act differently, lead differently in innovation than operations, that awareness alone is a huge step. Because that allows you to start building a habit, right? And so what you do is some of the first things I tell leaders to do is talk last. Make sure that everybody in the room shares their perspective before you weigh in. And then, when you do weigh in, weigh in with a question. Like, the first thing out of your mouth should be a question, and it should be a genuine question, because we can all tell when someone's asking a question that's not really a question. It's, you know, you just kind of lift your voice at the end, and you're like, "We should do this, don't you think?" Jimmy: That's called a queggestion in the coaching world. Robyn: Yes. So So everyone can tell when you're asking a genuine question versus not. So, ask a genuine question, and then listen. Actually, like deeply listen. And if you do those you know, awareness, and then those three things of speak last, ask a question, genuinely listen, you'll be amazed at at how much further you get. Now, of course, there's a lot of other things you have to do along the way, but those specific actions will carry you further than probably 75, 80% of most people who've been tasked with innovation. Jimmy: I really like that idea of, yeah, not queggestioning, which is the, "Shouldn't we be doing this? Or wouldn't this be a good thing to do?" The really strong questions for leaders who want to ask questions, but maybe struggle, is just to start with the phrase, "How might we? How might we? Or I wonder how we might?" Robyn: Yeah. Jimmy: Because we're opening up the creative part of people's brains, and that's one of the secrets, right, to this, it's actually it's thinking about things you've never thought about versus thinking about things using the skills and knowledge you already have, Robyn: Yep. Jimmy: which is meaning you need to access that creative part of your brain, which, if you're an analytical operator, potentially you haven't accessed very frequently, and your team might not have accessed as well. Robyn: Yeah, and, you know, recognising you're in a situation where nobody has the answer. Like, when you're doing something new, it's not been done before. So, it's okay to not have the answer, because no one has the answer. And if you pretend you have the answer, everyone knows you're pretending. So like, just don't pretend. Just be honest, and, like you said, ask, "How might we?" Or, you know, "I'm curious." You know, these open-ended questions that prompt thinking, and, trust me, people are going to be silent as soon as you ask the question, because they're not used to that. They are used to you being the expert. They are used to you giving the answer. So, as one of my mentors told me, let the silence work for you. Let there be silence. And someone will speak, somebody will eventually speak. So, let there be silence, because that also shows that you're willing to listen. Jimmy: And that beautiful phrase, "Tell me more." When somebody says something interesting, you just let people run with their thinking, because often people will self-censor. I re- I love that question, "Tell me more," and then just wait Robyn: Yeah. Jimmy: in the uncomfortable silence until somebody fills it. Yeah, no, beautiful, beautiful phrase. Robyn: Yes. Jimmy: Now, I want to go a little bit deeper on the idea of we're operating outside the things that we've been trained for, and the maybe the mental models that we have got used to relying on. And there is a beautiful framework which we discussed called the Cynefin framework, invented by one of my all-time favourites, Dave Snowden. And I think it's a really relevant model for this context. Hey there, Jimmy here. I just wanted to drop in on this episode and say an enormous thank you for all of the amazing reviews and testimonials and feedback we're getting about the Ways of Working podcast. Top 10% globally, and absolutely thrilled to be there, bringing as much value as we can from the Ways of Working community to you, our listeners. I wanted to drop a quick note of one of the beautiful reviews that was left by Jenny M49. Thank you so much, Jenny, for that kind review. Jenny says, "For those people who want to gain a practical performance edge, full of practical tips in every episode, tune in here." Jenny, we really appreciate your feedback, thank you so much, and hope that you, our listeners, will follow and subscribe using your favourite podcast platform of choice, and bring every episode to share value, knowledge, and expertise from our incredible guests. Take care. Speak soon. And I was wondering, could you walk us through that model, and explain and share with us why is it that we really struggle with this expert innovation paradox, and how can we use our skills differently in those four or five different quadrants? Robyn: Right. So, the model itself, like you said, the the Cynefin model, I just I, too, absolutely adore it, because it acknowledges that, you know, not every situation is the same. I mean, we tend to, like we talked about before, you kind of figure out what works in one situation and then you just kind of keep doing it, because it worked. So, the Cynefin model, one of the beautiful things about it is that it acknowledges that not every situation is the same. So, basically, you kind of think about, you know, there's a spectrum from what they call un-ordered to ordered, right? And there is On the ordered side, there's what's called a simple context. And this is this is the place that like God love like we all love to be here, I think we all love to be here, because this is where you know infinitely more than you don't know, cause and effect, you not only do you know it, you can anticipate it, like this is your sweet spot, and this is where expertise is absolutely, you know, expected, earned, deserved, all of that amazing stuff. It's also a place where very few of us actually get to live day to day, especially as leaders. So, even though it's like, I think, most people's happy place, you don't get to visit there that often. So, then the next you know, kind of block over is complicated. It's actually called complicated. It is complicated, and it's called complicated. And that is where there are unknowns, but you know what you don't know, if that makes In, you know, kind of the the parlance. There are known unknowns, there are many possible right answers. And so, really, you're just trying to figure out of, okay, you know, what are the trade-offs between options? And that is I think where a lot of leaders find themselves, especially in, you know, when they're working in operations, is that you can see the trade-offs of path A versus path B, and so you have to figure out like, okay, which one should we go down? Things then from complicated kind of move over to complex. And this is where you start getting into a context that is, you know, as the model calls it, un-ordered. And this is where there are the unknown unknowns, and so people start getting, you know, really uncomfortable. This is where you start getting into the space of innovation, because you don't know what you don't know yet, and there are many competing ideas, you don't know what cause and effect looks like, and so naturally leaders get very uncomfortable. And so this is where, like, you know, using discussion, asking people, "How might we?", facilitating the room instead of leading, is really important. Then you get all the way over to chaotic, which is as it sounds, and nobody loves, but is real. Like, you can be in a chaotic context, where, like, it's not just that you don't know what you don't know, it's things are unknowable, and there are no right answers, and, you know, tension is really high, and things can start to devolve, but still, as a leader, you need to deal with it. So, it's kind of at that point looking for what works versus looking for what, you know, the perfect answer. You know, as I say often to my clients, you know, imperfect action in a chaotic environment is much better than perfect inaction. So, find what works, do that until things, you know, kind of at least stop being chaotic and maybe move over to complex. Jimmy: Really wonderful walk-through the model, and we will pop a link to the Cynefin framework in the show notes for those of you who want to have another dig into it, because it is, at first glance, something out of your normal realm of operating, and I think you articulated it really beautifully when we talked about that complex environment where essentially that's the world of optimisation. When we're optimising business, we're actually stifling innovation, because we're just trying to do the best pathway analysis of what we've got. Whereas, I always liken the the chaotic stuff to being in a white water raft about to go through the rapids, and you don't know what's going to happen at each phase, and just because you were paddling on the left before doesn't mean you should keep paddling on the left now, because things change all of the time, and that chaotic environment can really shift very quickly. So, you mentioned at the start of that explanation that this is all about situational leadership. It's knowing, or doing your best to identify, which of these blocks am I in, and, therefore, how should I lead? And I wondered if you had any stories or examples of working with some of your clients where leaders have had to either challenge themselves, or struggle to understand where they were at in that model, and to shift their approach based on a maybe a new view or a new perspective? Robyn: Yeah, absolutely. It's a situation that happens a lot when there's a merger or an acquisition going on. You know, I mean you can imagine, it's two companies kind of colliding in some way, and there's a ton of uncertainty. So, I was working with a big media and entertainment company, and, you know, especially at the VP level, like their VPs were just burnt out, overwhelmed, just in a state of I think constant anxiety would be considered a good day in the organisation. And so the first thing that I did with them was say, "Right, everything is not the same. Every decision you're facing, every challenge you're facing is not the same. So let's use the Cynefin model to break down what you're dealing with, because the context will guide you to how you need to approach kind of figuring out the solution." And just that step of being able to say, "Okay, right. Here are the five things I'm dealing with. And, you know, actually three of them are complicated, and only two of them are complex. And I felt like all five of them were chaotic, but actually they're not. And, you know, I do actually know more about some of these than others." Just that step of being able to give words to, like, this is a complicated challenge, this is a complex challenge, you know, right there, that took the anxiety level down a bit. And then we could get in to talking about, okay, so, in, you know, a complicated model, this is where you want to talk to experts. This is where you want to get conflicting advice. This is devil's advocate space. How can you do that? Right. Now you have a complex problem. What kind of experiments can you run? And had a lot of conversation around, okay, an experiment, we all think of a lab, right? And, instead, it can be a conversation with someone you usually don't talk to. It can be, you know, setting up a little lemonade stand in the corporate lobby. Whatever that is. But what are small steps you can take to learn a little bit to build your confidence? Jimmy: I love that. I really and I like the fact that the model supports you through the, okay, so now I've identified what is the context or the situation I'm in, the model suggests a a series of actions or solutions that you can follow, which are going to really help with your, A, being able to label what those solutions should be, but also enable you to react more appropriately, and de-stress yourself, because, as you say, that that burnout often comes from the anxiety of, "Everything is chaotic around me, and everything is out of control." Robyn: Yep. Jimmy: Let's develop that scenario, then, and what I've noticed, as we've been working since COVID particularly, is that sometimes, for leaders in positions of large responsibility, the CEOs, board-level in the organisation, is that leading in chaos or crisis can actually be quite a nice default setting, because you remove administration and bureaucracy, you make directive decisions, you just do versus all of the change management and optimisation processes that might go around. From your experience, what is the danger of leading in a chaotic style, or leading with a chaotic response, to non-chaotic situations? Robyn: Burnout, plain and simple. Jimmy: Wow. Tell us more about that. Robyn: It's essentially you're sprinting a marathon. And if you're constantly reacting to things, you know, you don't ever feel like you're in control, right? You feel like everything is outside of your control. You can start to get into, you know, doubting yourself, doubting your instincts, doubting your abilities. Why couldn't you foresee this happening? Even just kind of the neurological aspect is you're not operating in kind of your prefrontal cortex, which is where your executive reasoning is. You are all the way back in your limbic system, and that's where fight or flight comes in. That's where you're in survival mode. And it's not nice to live there, and if you live there, the you literally start getting health problems, you start getting burnout, and so, when everything is an emergency, when everything is a crisis, you just you burn out physically, mentally, intellectually, and as a leader, you're not getting the best out of your team. You're not getting out of people what they are capable of giving you. And so I would say that's just not even being a good leader. Being a good leader is being able to figure out like, is this actually a crisis? Or am I making it a crisis, cuz I get a rush out of, you know, being the superhero? I get to be the person who saves the day, meanwhile, everybody else is drowning. Jimmy: I I think that's key, as well, the idea that, if you're at that level of an organisation and you have people that you're responsible for, that you labelling in your own mind, "This is a crisis, or a chaos situation, and, therefore, we will need to run to react," then you do, you create that ripple effect across the business. And oftentimes, and we use this phrase quite a lot when we're coaching leaders, is to say, "What are you seeing, versus what's really happening?" And when you dig a bit deeper on the what's really happening, and ask some questions, and do a little bit more diagnosis, you what you're seeing might look like a crisis, but actually it's just complex, Robyn: Right. Jimmy: or actually it's it's a simple situation. But, because you're in that reactive space, your amygdala is firing, and you're in fight or flight mode, is that you rush to react, and actually maybe reaction is not the appropriate response. So, yeah, it can be very, very challenging, and and, you know, I've got I've got experience working with organisations where they've been operating in crisis for three, four years, and the people are tired out, because the leadership prefer that model of, yeah, rush to save the day, or rush to respond, and not being more considered and more appropriate in their response. Very challenging, very challenging, and there's no easy answers to this, are there? Robyn: No, but I read an interesting stat, kind of to that point, of that when you the IQ difference between operating in your amygdala, you know, in your your limbic system versus the prefrontal cortex, is you're half as smart. Jimmy: Wow. Robyn: When you Like, literally, your IQ is half of what it could be when you are operating in fight or flight. So, like literally, when you create the crisis, when you call something out as a crisis, you are making your people half as smart as they could be. And wouldn't it be amazing if an organisation could, like just by stopping the crisis reaction, suddenly become twice as smart? Jimmy: Well, being I mean, how much more creative and innovative we would be. Robyn: Yes. Jimmy: Oh, wonderful. Robyn, I'm so thrilled that we've got to dig into this topic a little bit, and go a little bit deeper on not only the models that can help to innovate, but also some of the experiences that you've had, and and some of those real challenges that leaders face around being more innovative versus being the expert in the room. How do you keep yourself up to date, and where can our listeners go to learn a little bit more about this world? Robyn: Yeah. So, how do I keep myself up to date? It's a lot of reading. LinkedIn is great source. Innovation Leader is an organisation specifically designed to help corporate innovators kind of improve their skills, learn what's going on, learn from, support each other. It's a fantastic organisation. And then, of course, kind of shameless plug, I write constantly about this and about what I'm seeing and about how I'm helping my clients. So, if you go to MileZero's website, milezero, z-e-r-o, .io, you can read my blogs, you can listen to other interviews that I've done on on various topics around innovation. Jimmy: Fantastic, and we'll make sure that that is linked in the show notes below for all of our listeners to go over to to Robyn's website. And I've read a couple of her articles, and I can tell you that she has got her finger on the pulse when it comes to this stuff. Robyn, if you were to give our audience one key takeaway from today's conversation, what would that be? Robyn: When it comes to innovation, do the opposite of your instincts. You are an amazing operator. That is how you got to a leadership role. When you're asked to innovate, just do the opposite of your instincts, and you'll be surprised how far you get. Jimmy: I love that. I love that. It reminds me It reminds me of one of the liberating structures, which is the, how do we design the worst response possible, and then mirror it? And it's it's, again, it's another innovation tactic. How fascinating. Robyn, thank you so much for joining us on the show. Really appreciate your wisdom and knowledge, and look forward to this episode coming out and sharing all of the fascinating insights with our listeners. Take care. Thank you so much. Robyn: Thank you, you, too. Jimmy: That's it for this week's episode of The High Performance Leader. If you enjoyed this episode, please drop a review on whichever platform you listened on. We really appreciate it, and it helps us to connect with new listeners. Also, if you haven't already, head to jimmyburroughes.com, and download a copy of my latest bestseller, Beat Burnout, Ignite Performance. It's the leader's playbook for building a high-performance culture, and is packed with practical action tips to get you started. Stay tuned for next week's episode of game-changing insights and ideas on The High Performance Leader.