Why Managers Fail When Promoted Without Leadership Skills

Here is the complete transcript of this episode:
In this milestone 50th episode of *The High Performance Leader*, host Jimmy Burroughes is joined by Paul Teasdale, Chief Community Officer at JBL and former McLaren Formula 1 performance specialist, to explore the critical distinction between management and leadership. They unpack the widespread leadership development void that leaves mid-tier managers unsupported, overworked, and burning out. Together, they outline why generic training fails, how tailored frameworks and peer communities bridge the gap, and what organisations must do to build sustainable leadership capability.

"Managers execute, and leaders anticipate." — Jimmy Burroughes

"If they don't grasp the fact that being a manager is different to being a leader, then they're always going to struggle." — Paul Teasdale

"You're either burning yourself out trying to perform, or you're just not performing." — Jimmy Burroughes

"Common sense is not common practice." — Paul Teasdale

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Welcome and Introduction

[00:00] PAUL: I struggled, I'm now in a better place, this is what worked for me, let's work together. And if you've got multiple people with that, you can learn all of the great things that all of those people have done and see what works for you.
[00:13] JIMMY (VOICEOVER): Welcome back to this week's episode of The High Performance Leader, the podcast for leaders working in complex, challenging environments to gain insights and ideas which help you increase your impact without burning out and to help you build a high performance culture in your team. I'm your host, Jimmy Burroughes, and if you're new to The High Performance Leader, make sure you subscribe or follow so you don't miss any of our upcoming episodes before you put down your device.
[00:40] JIMMY: Hello, and welcome back to this week's episode of The High Performance Leader. It is our 50th podcast episode. And for this week, we are in celebration mode. What do I mean by that? It means that we're going to talk about one of the topics that I am truly, truly passionate about. And I thought, who can I have a conversation with about this topic? And the only person on the list that was available was the friend of the show, Chief Community Officer of JBL, ex-McLaren Formula One performance specialist, and previous guest, Paul Teasdale. Paul, welcome to the show.
[01:21] PAUL: Thanks so much for having me back, Jimmy. Yes, available—it's my best, my best sort of remit really, is my availability. I'm always good for that.

The Management vs. Leadership Divide

[01:31] JIMMY: We jest, but actually, Paul and I have been working on something for a little bit of a while now that we wanted to try and tackle some of that topic today because, on the 50th episode, we've now got 50 data points of what high performance looks like in leadership. We've also got probably between us nearly 30 years of experience around—nearly 40 years of experience probably, actually—of what high-performance leadership and high-performance business looks like.
And between all of those data sets, we've noticed something coming up. And that something is: Why is it that we've got a real struggle with managers today? Why do people leave their jobs? Because of their manager. Why have we got all of these managers all over the world burning out? And why is it that we seem to have leaders and managers who are really struggling to get it right, despite billions of dollars a year being spent on leadership development? So, that's what we're going to tune into today.
And before you put down your device, whatever you're listening on, please make sure you hit the subscribe or follow button if you're one of the 30% of listeners who isn't yet subscribed to the podcast. We want to make sure you don't miss any of the future upcoming episodes in season three, because we've got some absolute doozies lined up for you.
One final thing: we really appreciate you being here and genuinely want to share as much value as we can. So today, we're going to get into it right now, where we talk in The High Performance Leader all about management to leadership and how that works.
So, Paul, in my mind, there is a distinct difference between management and leadership. And over the course of your career, there seems to be a transition point where you move from being an individual contributor to being a manager, to being a leader. But it seems that not everybody gets that differentiation. And why—why do you think that is? What's going on for us?
[03:32] PAUL: It's an interesting one, because I think a lot of this is not for lack of trying. And I think that's one of the things that I've noticed throughout the whole career, and I know we've talked about it a lot, is that people want to be the best they can be, and they want to be the best manager they can be. And if you ask them and delve into it, they actually want to be the best leader they can be.
But a lot of my experience in this is that they don't know the difference between being a manager and being a leader, partly because they haven't grown up through their career with that, they haven't had it explained explicitly, and they haven't had it put into that context for them. In terms of, you know, we talk about a manager and talk about a leader, often the two are interchangeable in conversation, but actually, in reality, they're very different. And unless you've had that mental leap, I think that's one of the crucial things that some people really, really struggle with. No matter how much knowledge they've got and access to all the great stuff, if they don't grasp the fact that being a manager is being—is different to being a leader, then they're always going to struggle.

Execution vs. Anticipation

[04:34] JIMMY: Yeah, so let's dig into that a little bit, because I think you're right. The words manager and leader are often interchangeable in general conversation, but they have very different requirements. They have very different skills that are required. If—maybe let's do a bit of a comparative analysis just to highlight some of the key differences.
But in my mind, you know, a manager works from a checklist or a to-do list, and they're all about getting today's job done, right? They're all about making sure that all the things are happening in the team that should be happening from a process perspective, from a delivery perspective. And really, they're the efficiency gurus for their team. How do you think that contrasts to what a leader is all about?
[05:10] PAUL: So, first thing that came to mind, actually, I love that analogy of the checklist, because a manager is all focused on the checklist. And it's not to say that a leader can't be focused on a checklist, but their checklist is probably a very different list, with a very different focus, and a very different time frame involved.
So, a manager's time frame tends to be on the here and now, and what my immediate targets that I've been set by my boss to deliver, whereas a leader's time frame are a lot more putting the things in place, making sure that the barriers are out the way for people, making sure that people have the ability to deliver in the long term, as well as the short term. And I think that's one of the key crucial differences I see.
[05:50] JIMMY: Yeah, I've heard it summarised beautifully that managers execute and leaders anticipate.
PAUL: Right.
JIMMY: And if you can see it from those two different perspectives, it is that sort of ticking things off the checklist, execution, versus anticipation. We use, in our framework, the "icebreaker leader," and that anticipation is: What do I need to move out the way so the ships can sail through? And how do I support the people in my team to work most effectively? That is breaking the ice for them, feeling safe and trusted, and psychologically able to do their best work. It is that anticipation of what's going to happen next that I can open the gates, move the barriers, facilitate the way, and grease the wheels for activity to happen most effectively.
PAUL: Yeah.
[06:27] JIMMY: And I think that's probably a misunderstood concept, because as you move up through an organisation, actually, when you get to a more senior levels, you tend to be leading leaders and managers. You're not leading individual contributors anymore. So you're leading people who are responsible for other people, and if you haven't got the skill set to be able to lead effectively, then potentially that's going to harm the business productivity, your productivity, and the rewards, the recognition, and the results that you might be able to achieve, right?
[06:58] PAUL: Indeed. And I think one of the other bits that we've discussed in the past is that people get to manager level because they're being rewarded for doing the job. And I think there's a distinct difference between that. You know, people getting the reward and recognition to become a leader not—is still for doing the job, it's for managing that job. But actually, it takes a completely different mindset, and it's a completely different concept to grasp for people so that they can do the best for their people.

The U-Shaped Leadership Void

[07:27] JIMMY: Yeah. And yet we spend—I can't remember the exact number, but somewhere around the $600 billion a year is spent globally on leadership development in organisations. They're spending them on training companies, on consultants, on internal L&D programs, leadership development programs. So why is this such a challenging thing for people to get their heads around if we're spending heaps and heaps of money on it? What's not working?
[07:54] PAUL: I think we're spending heaps and heaps of money on the bits around this, and we're not having the conversation around that concept. We're assuming, quite often, and we're we're sort of moving it forward with the assumption that people grasp that immediately. And if this isn't—like anything, as you grow up in your career, as you move through, you know, there are unwritten rules and unwritten assumptions about what you should know and shouldn't know.
And if you're not telling people explicitly or talking that and having that conversation, then you're assuming that people are going to, at best, put their hand up and say, "I don't know." And you and I both know [laughter] that when you're in that situation, particularly when you've just been promoted and given this new role, you know, the first thing you're going to say is, "Excuse me, I don't know how to do this. I don't even grasp the concept of what this is compared to..." You know, you feel—talk about psychological safety—who has ever been in that situation and gone, "I've just been promoted, I'm in this new position, you're giving me more money, and the first thing I'm going to say is I've got no clue"?
[08:58] JIMMY: How embarrassing would that be? Career-limiting, right? [Laughter]
PAUL: Yes, exactly. And that's the—I think it's assumed to be career-limiting, but often, if you talk about where these conversations are being had as well, you know, it's difficult to have that conversation enough within your organisation, never mind externally, when you need to know, like, and trust people to move forward on that.
[09:21] JIMMY: I think you're on to something there, definitely. The willingness to speak up and say, "Hey, I'm not 100% clear on the difference between management and leadership, and could somebody walk me through that?" It's almost assumed that I will know because I'm at that stage of my career now.
PAUL: Yeah.
JIMMY: So it's almost too late to ask. I think, for me, also, one of the—I mean, I've been through literally hundreds of thousands of dollars of leadership training over the years through Royal Military Academy and through MBA programs and whatever else it is. And one of the things I've really noticed in organisations is there tends to be like a U-shaped development curve for leadership development.
So at the left-hand end, you've got your, "Hey, you've just been promoted to team leader, let's give you some management skills." And so you go on what I call Management 101, whatever that looks like in your organisation. And you learn the basics of delegation and prioritisation and all these, what I would call, management skills to make you execute better as a manager and lead your team better.
And then there seems to be nothing in many organisations until you get to executive coaching, which is where the few get offered a very expensive, very senior person to mentor them, coach them, work with them to enhance their performance.
[10:33] JIMMY: But in the middle, we've got this kind of 16-to-25-year gap of: you're not a team leader anymore, but you're not in the C-suite, so just make it up as you go. And we've got some stuff that you can read, we've got some videos you can watch. Our internal L&D team doesn't have capacity, resource, knowledge, or skills—any of the above—to be able to create something that's going to help you transition from management to leadership. And if they do have something, it tends to be fairly generic, which is just a higher level, higher version of Management 101 pitched in a different way, without actually starting to really dig into the paradigm shift between management and leadership. Is that fair from what you've seen as well?
[11:07] PAUL: Most definitely. And the thing that has always struck me is, if you think about that bottom end of the U-shaped curve, how many people are in your organisation there? And how much value in your organisation are you missing out on if you just lifted that level just slightly?
JIMMY: Right? [Laughter]
PAUL: You know, that is [laughter]—that is the driving force behind your organisation that makes stuff happen on a day-to-day basis. If you could lift that level of leadership and the value that comes along with that, then your organisation's going to fly.
[11:37] JIMMY: Absolutely. You know, the majority of our businesses are run by tiers three through six in our organisation. So it's your GMs, your directors, your senior managers, your regional managers, your operations managers, and they're the ones who aren't getting the development. And we correlate that back to the real-world data, which is our managers feel like the meat in the sandwich right now in terms of the pressure that they're under to deliver from senior leadership, but their inability to deliver because of their own skills or the skills of their team.
PAUL: Yeah.
JIMMY: The research also shows what's the number one reason people leave their jobs? Because of their manager. So we've got this absolute—I call it the leadership lull in the middle of that U that is causing a lot of this issue, which I think is causing some real, real challenges.

The Overwhelm of Content vs. Context

[12:20] JIMMY: So, I think we've agreed that there is a fundamental difference between leadership and management, there's some real challenges in the the delivery of those concepts into organisations. But surely, if I'm a leader who wants to upskill myself, there's a plethora of stuff on YouTube, on Coursera, on Google that I could go and get.
PAUL: Yep.
JIMMY: So why is that not working?
[12:44] PAUL: As you say, there's no shortage of materials. If you think about the tools and the frameworks and, you know, the methods and the methodologies that are out there, there's no shortage of them. And there's a couple of challenges I see. One is having the time to go and learn all of those things. But actually, have I—do I really need to spend all my time on that, or do I—which are the ones that I need to spend my time on? Which are most relevant to me right now for the situation and challenges that I've got, and for the future that I'm moving towards? So knowing which ones to pick is the challenge.
You know, the—as you say, the training materials haven't changed. You know, you know I worked in the world of Formula One for a number of years and, you know, the pit stop as a methodology for changeovers in operations and for an analogy of something that happens really fast in teamwork, that's been talked about for 30, 40 years. But it was the context of that, and the whole—this is putting people into this is how it relates to you and your organisation, and why this is the tool and the framework for you right now. That's the bit where people can, you know, you can learn all sorts of things; if you're not using it, or if it's not relevant, it's not going to get you the value.
[13:59] JIMMY: I completely agree. You know, there's—the majority of people who do end up going on leadership courses just get death by PowerPoint of content. And yet that doesn't seem to be making a difference. And it makes me wonder, you know, it's this is not a content issue. You need the right stuff for, as you say, your specific context, the environment that you're operating in, the business you're working in, the problems that you're trying to solve. And so choosing carefully what content is going to help you to solve some of those problems is key.
But I think a lot of the people who we've come across don't really seem to know which of the 25 prioritisation models, or the delegation models, or the frameworks for having a one-on-one, should I actually choose?
PAUL: Yeah.
JIMMY: Because there just seems to be so many to choose from. And I find that a little bit overwhelming as well. You know, you look online, which one should I choose? And every course I go on, they teach me a different one, and I don't have time to actually bed it in either.
[14:53] PAUL: Yeah, exactly. And if you listen to everyone, everyone's going to say that theirs is the best. You know, it's like, "Here's my tool, here's my approach, here's my methodology. It's the best one for all the problems that you'll ever have." It's the the old snake oil mentality. But actually, it's the value of an expert or a practitioner that can point you in the direction of this is the right tool for you right now.
[15:19] JIMMY: It is. And then showing you how it works in your environment, and giving you some chances to practice it before you have to go back to your team and do something with it.
PAUL: Yeah.
JIMMY: Because my analogy there I use when I talk about a lot of leadership development programs that people go on, is they go away for three days away from their team, and whether that's three days consecutively or three days over three months, and they get firehosed with information, which is, "Here's how you do X, Y, and Z." And then they go back to work filled with great ideas and intentions, but when they get back to their desk, they've got a day full of meetings ahead, they've got three days' worth of emails to catch up on.
PAUL: Yeah.
JIMMY: And all of those great intentions just get pushed to the back burner because they've got to deal with the here and now. They're back into management mode dealing with all the things that have happened.
And so, actually, there's no opportunity for me to sit down and really reflect and consider, what is it that I was taught, and how am I going to use that really effectively? And nobody to check in with, generally, because the instructor is an external person or an L&D person who's now really busy. Nobody to check in and go, "Hey, could you just run me through that one more time? Or how could I use this piece in my environment?"
There's none of that. So it's just like, "Hey, here's the information, here's the PowerPoint deck that you that we used. Go get on with being a better leader now."
PAUL: Yeah.
JIMMY: And you can imagine, if that was a pit stop in Formula—in F1, "Here's a PowerPoint presentation of how to do a pit stop. Right, now go and make it happen half a second quicker." It doesn't compute, but that's what we seem to do with leaders.
[16:44] PAUL: It is. And it's that element of if you put yourself in that situation, you watch a pit stop, or if you watch something, you engage with a development practitioner, somebody who's training you in this stuff, you can get it in the moment. If they're good at what they do, they can explain, "Oh, I understand. Yes, that's how I understand, and that's where it fits in, fantastic."
But when you're back in your working environment with your day-to-day pressures, that sudden element of even if I remember that's the right tool for this situation, the big question of: How do I do this? What's step one again? What's, you know, actually going from—I want to get to that outcome, I know the tool's outcome is this, but actually, I don't know what to do in the first instance. And then, as you say, it's like that: How do you put your hand up and ask the question?
JIMMY: Right.
PAUL: And can you do it internally? Probably not, because of a lot of those psychological safety questions. But also, have you got access to the person who's taught you in the first place? And let's face it, in some of those instances, are those people who've taught well, and shown you the stuff well, and demonstrated it, really the ones to help you apply it? It's a—for me, it's a different skill set. And it's that teaching versus facilitation kind of view. It's a different skill set required to help you put it into practice. And so, yeah, it's finding those right people as well.

Listener Shoutout

[18:07] JIMMY (VOICEOVER): Hey, Jimmy here. Just wanted to drop into this episode and let you know that we're so grateful for all of those reviews that you as listeners leave on our podcast. We put our hearts and souls into the podcast, and the guests we invite are absolutely fantastic. I wanted to share one review with you from a recent episode from Kelly: "Jimmy's experience and thoughtful dialogue provide a phenomenal canvas of learning opportunities from thought leaders in the industry. It was a pleasure both listening and participating. What a great resource to learn valuable tips and tricks to navigating impactful leadership capabilities." So not only are we thrilled to have incredible guests on the show, but we're also absolutely overjoyed that it's having a positive impact on our listeners like you on the Ways of Working podcast. Speak soon.

The Power of Peer-to-Peer Learning

[19:00] JIMMY: For me, leadership development is not about training per se. Training is one piece of the puzzle, but it needs to be underpinned by really understanding why—what's what's the purpose of this bit of the puzzle?
PAUL: Yeah.
JIMMY: And having a framework or methodology that's almost intuitively simple to be able to use. Not not necessarily be easy to use, but it's simple to use. It requires some practice.
And then the other piece I think is really important, which we haven't probably touched on yet, is having some people to bounce some things around with. If I think back to when we were doing the Global Leadership Mastermind, we'd have people from multiple countries and multiple industries coming into these sessions.
And I remember asking the question, "What's something you got out of these sessions that you didn't expect to get?" And I was thinking it was going to be, you know, great facilitation, or really engaging content, and all the things we've talked about today. But actually, it was the, "Realising that I'm not the only person who's going through this real challenge right now. Realising that I'm not alone in not really getting this, and not really knowing how to deal with it."
PAUL: Yeah.
JIMMY: And I think that's a really important piece of the puzzle that a lot of leadership programs, a lot of internal programs as well, don't get the opportunity to support their people with.
PAUL: Yeah.
JIMMY: Is that they don't create that peer learning, network learning, coaching community that can really cement in and accelerate the learning. Tell tell me your thoughts on that.
[20:23] PAUL: Yeah, I mean, I think this is crucial, and it speaks to the things that stop people from moving forward with some of these things. It's the stumbling blocks and the things that people emotionally tie in with, where they've got two ends of the spectrum as far as I can see.
One is the bit where you say, "I'm the only one struggling with this. I look around in my organisation, and I see this leadership challenge in front of me. I see everybody solving this problem. Everyone seems to get it, but actually, I don't feel as if I can be the one to stand up and say, 'I don't really get this. I don't understand how to do this.'" You know, but if you're asking a peer community—and we've seen it, you know, I've seen the the WoW community in practice—and that peer-to-peer, particularly if you've got people from completely different environments, different countries, different backgrounds, all this sort of stuff, and you go, "I'm—provide a community and a space where people feel safe enough to bring these things up."
And they say, "I'm really struggling with this." And then suddenly everyone goes, "Well, I'm struggling with that. I'm struggling with that as well." And suddenly it's like, "Whoa, I'm not the only one." Therefore—
[21:29] JIMMY: "How are we going to solve this? Like, what are we going to do about it together?" Yeah, let's work on it together.
[21:32] PAUL: Exactly. And it frees—frees up all of that mental energy to go, "Let's move forward and let's solve it together."
And the flip side of that is you say, "I'm really struggling with this," and somebody says in that community, "Well, I struggled with that, too. This is what I did to help me through. This is the journey that I went on, and maybe I can help you." And that is something that you tend not to be able to get too much of internally—
JIMMY: Yeah.
PAUL: —because it's a—it's a struggle to put that hand up. It's that—it's that sort of career-limiting move, as you said earlier. But actually, externally—
[22:07] JIMMY: And the fear of judgment. The fear of judgment that somebody's going to go, "Oh my God, Paul doesn't know how to do that. So he can't get promoted this year, because he's clearly not up to the job." Or at least my and my fear of that's what's going to happen.
[22:18] PAUL: Yes. Yeah, it's—as you say, it's the fear that's going to happen, not necessarily the reality. But if people have been through that, they're going to say, "Look, I struggled, I'm now in a better place, this is what worked for me, let's work together." And if you've got multiple people with that, you can learn all of the great things that all of those people have done and see what works for you.
[22:36] JIMMY: And all the mistakes they made, so you don't have to make the mistakes, which is probably the other benefit.
PAUL: Oh yeah. Yep.

Overcoming the "Second Job" and Finding Balance

[22:41] JIMMY: Yeah, I remember a good friend of ours, Carl, who shared with me something that I thought it was really interesting, is that the cognitive energy of people actually means they have two jobs when they go to work. They've got the job they're employed to do, and then they've got the job of trying to pretend that they're more capable and confident than they actually are, which sucks up more than 50% of their their cognitive horsepower.
So if we can solve this problem of people feeling like, "Oh my God, I don't really know the difference between management and leadership, but I'm too scared to put my hand up and say anything about it. I don't really know which tools and frameworks to choose that are going to allow me to do a really good job. Of those tools and frameworks, I'm not really sure how they work in my specific environment, in my job, in my role, in my company, because we're special and unique, because everybody always is. And then, and I've got some people to share with me."
I believe that we're going to reduce that second job that people have which is burning them out, is causing all these issues, which is that, "I've got to pretend to be more capable and confident than I actually am." We take that noise away, so I—and then I can really focus on being a better leader and a better operator, moving out of my need to boost my own self-confidence with expertise and guruism, and start to just relax into being the icebreaker, being the visionary high-impact leader that we really want to see.
[24:00] PAUL: Yeah, and I think that is when you see people who are doing this well and have been through that journey, it's not just that they're getting the results, it's—and the bit that you and I have talked about a lot is the people who do that in a calm and collected manner, who've got the time to do that, to stop and think, and think ahead, and and get proactive about it, and also to enjoy the rest of their life along with it. Without having to—you can do all of this stuff by working 100-hour weeks.
You know, you can achieve the outcome, but actually, is that success for you? That's a key other aspect. And I think you've you've mentioned those four things. Any three of those, you can have success with for a limited amount of time at the cost of something. And that cost is typically your energy and your, you know, the ability—the fact that you will burn out trying to achieve that, or you spend a decent amount of energy, but you don't get the results that you want, you don't get that impact that you want.
[24:59] JIMMY: That's it. You're either—yeah, you're either burning yourself out trying to perform, or you're just not performing.
PAUL: Yep. [Laughter]
JIMMY: So [laughter], because because you're so overloaded and you'd maybe focusing on the wrong things. Maybe you're focusing your energy on being a manager and execution, because that's the safe place.
PAUL: Yeah.
JIMMY: And, you know, if we go back to the where we started almost, is that many people stay acting like managers because that's what got them promoted. That's what got them recognised and elevated initially. So that's the hard-wired behaviour that keeps on prevailing versus thinking, "Hold on, I've got this backpack of stuff that I can use, but now I'm at a stage in my career where I kind of need to take that backpack off, turn it upside down, shake it out, and work out which bits I need to take me through to the next stage of my career, and which bits that I can leave on the, you know, donate to charity for somebody else to benefit from, and maybe somebody who's coming up behind me could use those things that that I've learned along the way."
[25:50] PAUL: If I take you back to your your armed forces days, this is like the lieutenants or the the upper echelons walking around with a 40-kilo backpack on and their and their rifle with them every day, you know, trying to do their job in their office, you know. You wouldn't do that. So you you need to literally get rid of that baggage and equip yourself with the right tools and techniques, and the right mindset that goes along with that, and the supportive network that goes goes with it as well. So, yeah, fully agree.

Why Organisations Fail to Fix This

[26:18] JIMMY: So, why do you think this is not happening? Because to me, it sounds like fairly common sense. To me, it sounds like this is stuff that should be happening in organisations.
PAUL: Yep.
JIMMY: I mean, obviously, time and money are two key considerations. Is there anything else you think is getting in the way of organisations shifting the way that they're creating leaders from their mid-to-senior manager population that that we need to be aware of?
[26:43] PAUL: Common sense is not common practice, as you well know. [Laughter] And I think that's the the bit is what has become very evident from the work that we've done along the years and the research that you've put in, not everyone's got time to do that. So not everybody sees these patterns. And this is the value of of external bodies in some ways, is that they can stand back and go, "Let's really look at what you're doing, what isn't working, what what isn't working because of what you're doing [laughter], and then what are you doing well that actually, if you just tweaked it a little bit, you could do better."
And having the time and the resource and the prioritisation that that is a real thing that's going to be of value, it's a very difficult one to put into budgetary figures. [Laughter] And so, therefore, it doesn't get in itself prioritised. So where's it going to end up?
JIMMY: Yeah.
PAUL: It's going to end up bottom of the pile, and in the harder times when you probably need it most, it's one of the first things to to go. So, yeah, it's a tough one.
[27:46] JIMMY: Yeah. It's almost ironic, isn't it, that when we really need better management capability to build leadership, we cut the training department, we cut the courses that are being made available to people, we reduce the number of external training partners that we're working with.
And equally, when I've been working with organisations that really do have a focus on this, they tend to have that U-shaped portfolio, that suite of tools available. So it's the Management 101, because we know how to build and create that, and there's a million providers out there who can deliver content on management skills.
PAUL: Yeah.
JIMMY: Then we just give some YouTube videos in the middle zone and some books, and we expect people to sort of upskill themselves. And then we've got executive coaching.
And I've partnered with so many organisations who've said, "Well, we're—the next focus is our is our leader of leaders program, or our mid-manager to senior leader program, in our future GM program," but it never quite gets off the ground. There's always a new priority, or a restructure, or something happens.
And so having available something that you can almost take off the shelf, and it's going to be contextualised to your organisation, would be a rapid acceleration of management and leadership capability in the organisation, which would solve a lot of other problems, right? We'd be solving burnout problems, turnover problems, productivity problems. Tell me any more you can think of, but it seems to me like this is a huge benefit.
[29:00] PAUL: Well, I think you—one of the bits that's coming to mind is quite often the cost of bringing in external leaders, for instance. So we talk about the buy versus sort of build concept of, have you built up your leaders? Well, if you haven't invested in that bottom of the U, majority of your organisation, then you're going to be very low down on the development scale. Not the capability or the ability of those people to actually take it on, but if you haven't had the been exposed and have that learning and have that development, then actually to step up from, you know, the level that they've been at to where they're expected to be in a senior level, senior leadership level, you know, that is a—it's a big jump.
And why often organisations want to buy in that expertise, because they've already got people who have had that time invested in them by someone else. But those come at a cost.
JIMMY: Absolutely.
PAUL: And a long-term cost, as well as short term.
[29:56] JIMMY: And when those people who come in, often they're being led by people who haven't had that development. And what—certainly what I've noticed through the research that that I've been doing, is there's essentially been about a 25-to-30-year underinvestment in leadership due to things like operational excellence and Lean Six Sigma, and basically cost-cutting activities, stripping out management layers.
So the jumps between the layers become bigger and bigger. The people who are in those roles have less and less experience, and there's no time to go on fancy programs that take you away for navel-gazing retreats. It's it's about delivery now, now, now.
And so we've now got people in senior echelons of leadership who may never have had this training trying to lead people who are making their way up on through the same journey, and those people have no great example to follow. They're the one—they're actually going, "Well, my C-suite haven't had the benefit of these skills either, so they're still thinking like managers, they're still getting down in the weeds of the business. And so how am I meant to think or act any differently?"
[30:57] PAUL: Yeah. And it's also, building on that, it's the the element of, "Well, this got us here. I didn't have any training, you know, I I learned this from the ground up, I was thrown in the deep end of the swimming pool and I learned to swim. Therefore, everybody else should be able to," just because of that experience, yeah.

Creating the Solution

[31:14] JIMMY: And certainly not no intended criticism from the observations that we've made. It's it's more around trying to shine a light on the reality that we've seen across multiple businesses over multiple years, and these are the patterns that are starting to emerge as really distinct opportunity areas for for businesses to start thinking about solving.
And so, Paul, before we finish up, I'm really interested in in your thoughts on what could a solution to this look like? What might that end up being? And maybe sharing just a a little bit of a teaser of some of the work that we've been doing.
[31:48] PAUL: Well, I think it's creating an environment first of all. So that safe space where people can go, can have access to tools and things like that. You know, yes, there's going to be libraries of things available, but actually something that supports them in that space. A programs and ways of working that are tailored to those individuals and tailored to those teams, so that, actually, it's not just about a generic, "This is what leadership is about." This is—this is what leadership is in your context.
And providing that community that sits around it, that says, you know, "Here are some a group of people that you can go on this journey with, that you can bounce your ideas off, you can build up connections and networks that are much wider than your internal groups."
And the value of that, and the value of being able to have that psychologically safe environment to to bounce ideas off that don't have the pressures and the political impacts that you might might have internally. So it's about creating that space, and creating something where people can go to for the leadership development that is right for them, and is right for them through their journey. And I think, you know, we're working on some exciting stuff, and I I really hope that's going to be a big part of how this looks and feels going forward.
[33:07] JIMMY: Absolutely. And, you know, if you are interested to learn a little bit more about this, if we've piqued your interest on and maybe we've pushed some hot buttons that you think could be relevant to you as a listener, then in the show notes below this episode, we will actually leave a link to register for the wait list for an upcoming webinar that we'll be running which talks to this in a little bit more detail, and gives you some really practical stuff that you can take away immediately and apply, whether you're an HR professional in your business and you want to take it back and teach your leaders, or whether you're a leader who's really feeling, "I need some support here." We'll be covering both those areas off.
So make sure you do click that link below in the show notes and register your interest. It's free to turn up. We're not going to try and sell you anything. We're really just trying to share a little bit more about what we've been talking about today and and pique your interest that there is some stuff out there that is available for you that can really help you transition and reduce that psychological anxiety of, "Oh my God, am I actually doing a good job? And, oh my God, I've got so many things on my plate, I don't even know what to do." We want to try and tackle that for you and reduce that mental load a little bit.
[34:11] PAUL: Yeah.

Closing Reflections

[34:12] JIMMY: Paul Teasdale, friend of the show, [laughter] Chief Community Officer of JBL, Formula One performance expert, guru, good all-around bloke, really appreciate you coming on and just nerding out with me for this 30 minutes about what is really going on in the world of leadership development right now, what's not working, and and what could we do that's going to try and fix it. Any parting wisdom?
[34:35] PAUL: Just that there is a better way. I mean, the as you pointed out earlier on, it's there's lots of great stuff out there, and I think what we're trying to do is stand on the shoulders of giants, and build something that just brings it home and makes it real for people, and gets them to see and feel the results for themselves, not just in terms of work, but in terms of their wider life that goes along with it as well.
[34:56] JIMMY: Yeah, wouldn't it be amazing if we can impact people's lives in a positive way and not just their jobs? I'm definitely passionate about that.
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for tuning in to this week's episode of The High Performance Leader. If you have two seconds to spare, we'd really appreciate you just leaving a quick review, even if it's just tapping that five stars. If you want to use any words as well, we appreciate it. It really makes a difference to get more reviews, which gets us in front of more listeners to be able to share value like this in upcoming and future episodes.
Take care, speak to you soon.
[35:28] JIMMY (VOICEOVER): That's it for this week's episode of The High Performance Leader. If you enjoyed this episode, please drop a review on whichever platform you listened on. We really appreciate it, and it helps us to connect with new listeners.
Also, if you haven't already, head to jimmyburroughes.com and download a copy of my latest best seller, *Beat Burnout, Ignite Performance*. It's the leader's playbook for building a high-performance culture, and is packed with practical action tips to get you started.
Stay tuned for next week's episode of game-changing insights and ideas on The High Performance Leader.