How managers adapt decision making in uncertain conditions

Andrew: As a leader, we are heading into a leadership crisis if we rely only on the tools and methodologies and frameworks that have worked in the past. We have to recognise that the future is 100% uncertain and we need to be able to show up with that adaptive intelligence to be able to react to whatever happens in front of us. And admit and recognise that what we don't know is so much more important to focus on than what we do already know.
Jimmy: Welcome back to this week's episode of The High Performance Leader, the podcast for leaders working in complex, challenging environments to gain insights and ideas which help you increase your impact without burning out and to help you build a high-performance culture in your team. I'm your host, Jimmy Burroughes. And if you're new to The High Performance Leader, make sure you subscribe or follow so you don't miss any of our upcoming episodes before you put down your device.
Hello, and welcome back to this week's episode of The High Performance Leader. I'm really excited this week to be joined by a fellow high-performance leadership nerd, Andrew Barry. I say nerd with a lot of love, because, as those of you who listen to the podcast regularly will know, nerding out on various topics is my favourite thing to do. Andrew is pretty auspicious in the world of learning and development. He served in executive roles at global organisations like KPMG, and he's now the founder and CEO of Curious Lion. They're a company that specialise in high-performance leadership development. He and his team have developed thousands of leaders in incredible clients like PagerDuty, Pinterest, IMG and Alight, and they've won numerous awards for their engaging learning experience. Andrew is also a fellow podcaster, so make sure you tune in to the Learning Culture Podcast, where you can pick up some insights and trends in the industry. I know I'll be subscribing to that one as soon as I get off this podcast. Andrew, welcome to the show. It's really great to have you with us.
Andrew: Jimmy, thank you so much for that warm welcome. I'm excited to have this conversation with you.
Jimmy: Excellent. And Andrew, tell us a little bit about where you're based and a little bit of your back story. Where How did you get to here?
Andrew: Yeah, long route from the tip of Africa. Grew up in South Africa in Cape Town primarily. Then at KPMG, you mentioned earlier, was kind of my route to the States. So I moved here like 12, 13 years ago. I was with KPMG for about 12, 13 years in total, and 7 years ago, I plucked up the courage to leave the comforts of a massive organisation like that and start Curious Lion. So it's been quite a journey since that. And yeah, based out here in New York in the just in the suburbs just outside in New Jersey.
Jimmy: Fantastic. Such a an interesting journey and I you know, I see so many similarities in the work that we do and the types of people that we engage with, but one of the things that we discussed in our first meeting was just how VUCA the world has become for leaders to operate. For those of you who don't know what VUCA is, volatile, uncertain, complex and ambiguous, and we really see that level of uncertainty in the commercial marketplace now as a challenge for leaders, right? So can you give us a little bit of a deeper dive into what are some of those uncertainty challenges that you notice and you experience when talking to your clients and your leaders?
Andrew: Yeah, absolutely, Jimmy. I The way I think of the uncertainty, and it's great that you want to like zero in on that part of VUCA. I mean, all of it is really a great example of the accelerating nature of that volatility and uncertainty and change that that everyone's experiencing. But really, what we're talking about here and what we focus on a lot in our work is equipping leaders to deal with low-data environments, because that is the nature of things right now. And unfortunately, I think most of the leadership training and development that's out there and I'm I know your work is an exception to this as well, but very few are, right? There's a lot of legacy thinking in our in our industry, and it's all based on teaching people methodologies and frameworks and mental models for things that worked in the past. You know? And it's not about equipping them for what they're going to have to do to achieve success now, right? And so much of that like the ways I think about this a lot is that the work we're talking about here, leadership, right, is it's a thinkingsport, right? It's all about cognition. And so our work focuses very much on how do we improve, develop elite cognition in leaders, focusing on things like decision-making and problem solving and, you know, storytelling and collaboration and building trust, you know, and these kind of things which are all like, you know, and I know a big part of your work as well, right? Like these are that's the sport, right? That's what the that's the game everyone's playing. And I don't think enough training out there right now addresses this, and that's why I think it's a leadership crisis, because I think a lot of companies are relying on that legacy thinking.
Jimmy: One of the pieces of research that we love to lean into is Josh Bersin's power skills and I think you know, in the old days they were called the soft skills, but it's ironic that the soft skills are actually much harder to learn than the technical skills which were perceived as hard skills. And I think that, as you say, that ability to feel and work my way through challenges when we don't have enough data, to think myself through the problem, but also to involve others to create an environment where people can still work is a real challenge. Can you give us some examples of some practical tips or strategies that leaders could use that's going to help them navigate some of these low-data environments?
Andrew: Yeah. I mean, I think it starts with recognising that there is no perfect plan, right? There's no perfect answer. There's no And so much time is wasted trying to come up with that perfect plan, instead of getting good at planning, right? Like that's There's a very big difference between those two things. And I think it it often starts there, because, you know, what's going to define your success is not what you pre-planned or what you documented you're going to do, it's what you actually do when the moment presents itself, right? And so, you know, and again like, I think a lot of existing training out there just teaches people these existing ways of doing things, and then they get really good at memorising those approaches, but they've got no way to you know, apply them. So, yeah. I mean, like to get practical here, one of the things we I think let's talk about problem solving, right? Like that is a huge huge part of this. For us, we focus a lot on that skill specifically, because to to me, problem-solving is creativity, right? Like creativity is that ability to solve complex, open-ended problems and to be able to do that over and over again depending on, you know, because these problems pop up all the time. So we can go into like a few specific techniques around developing creativity. I want to and see if you're open for this. I'm happy to kind of run a few of these on you, if you want to kind of test these out. We can just do like a live We didn't talk about this beforehand. We can do like a live, little experiment here to see if it lands.
Jimmy: I'm 100% game. Let's give it a go.
Andrew: All right. So this first one is a technique that I learned from a professor at Ohio State. His name is Dr Angus Fletcher, and an absolute pioneer in the field of narrative thinking for creativity. And it informs a lot of our work. And so the this first exercise is just to show kind of an example, the difference between logical and narrative thinking. And for the listeners, once you understand that difference, it opens up a whole world of possibilities for you. So, Jimmy, I'm going to ask you to think of someone, don't tell me who it is, but think of someone close to you and just get that person in your mind.
Jimmy: Okay. I have them.
Andrew: Okay. Now, I want you to think of three statements that describe them. So this person is, and then, you know, like label you know, that thing. So think of three descriptors for them.
Jimmy: Determined, artistic and passionate.
Andrew: Okay, determined, artistic and passionate. Now, I want you to pick one of those, right? And I want you to think of a specific story or thing that happened in the past, something that helps you know that they are, you know, determined, artistic and I forget what the third one was. Just pick one of those and think of like a specific incident or event.
Jimmy: Okay. Got one.
Andrew: Okay. So which which of those three did you pick?
Jimmy: Uh determined.
Andrew: Determined. Okay. And what's the story?
Jimmy: So this person was moved to a new city and had was in the process of setting up a business with very little seed capital during the early couple the first couple of months of 2020. And then that business was entirely dependent on people coming to the city and becoming and being essentially hosted guests while they were here. And, of course, we all know what happened in 2020 and this person pivoted for the rest of 2020 and did something else to make sure that they survived. But also they continued to build the machine in the background of this business which is now really flourishing and doing a a fantastic job. And I guess for me, it was the ability to survive on little to no income for a very long period of time with the vision and the confirmed certainty that some that it would come right in the end and the determination to keep going.
Andrew: That's beautiful. And there's I'm going to come back to that specific story, but now and hopefully people who are listening did this exercise, how can you can you think now how you feel differently, like how how that your your experience of that person, your understanding of that person feels different when you said they are determined and when you you told me that story? Can you articulate that?
Jimmy: I mean, this is a beautiful example. I love this exercise because you suddenly start to unlock the colour and the emotion in that are connected between you and that person. It goes to a lot of the work we do around connection. And it's about finding that place where you can both exist together in an energetic frequency. And for me, that was a really aligning experience to be able to share how that person and I have become much more aligned on the energetic frequency. So it was connecting, it was emotive, and it was colourful.
Andrew: Yeah, this is awesome. Just for everybody listening, we didn't plan this. I Jimmy had no idea I was going to ask that question, and I had no idea how you were going to respond to it. And that's exactly the response we get all the time, and I love that you said energetic frequency, which is a way that you obviously think about these things. But to me, it's so descriptive of what we're talking about here. What The difference is it's attunement. You know, you've got this like deeper sense of connection to that person, and now that means you know much more deeply in your bones what to do next, right? What action to take, whether that's just to reach out to say, "Hey, I was thinking about you," or like maybe it spurred some sort of idea about them, whatever, but you never would have got that from saying, "Oh, so-and-so is determined." Right? So the I think there's you know, there's a lot for people to take away from that, and and the thing I've learned from Angus and his wife, Sarah, is that, you know, that contrast is so so important, right? Logical thinking has a place, right? It's It's really great for labelling, for categorising, for analysis, you know, that kind of stuff. But if you really want to convey meaning, right, and and talking about this energetic frequency and all that sort of stuff, you need story. You need narrative, right? And we don't spend enough time doing that in the work environment, right? Think about like think about like after-action reviews, right, or post-mortems or debriefs on projects, right? These typically are such pro forma activities, right? You show up in the room, you quickly go through like, "What happened? What did we expect to happen? What happened? Like what was the gap there? And what are we going to do differently?", right? And everyone wants to skip ahead to the what are we going to do differently part, come up with a bunch of labels, right? Oh, we going to right? And you just like get as many of those, and then you feel great. Like, "Oh, we got a list of eight things here. This is awesome.", right? And then what happens? Like nothing. Right? Like nothing actually tangible.
Jimmy: It goes on the shelf with all the other lessons learned that we don't pay attention to.
Andrew: Exactly, right? And what you know, Angus and and his wife again, or actually, I think Angus in his work with the military has shown with their after-action reviews is that when you spend up to 75% of the time in those meetings unpacking the narrative, like, of the So, step two, what actually happened? You get to the what are we going to do differently part anyway, but you get it in a much more implicitly felt way, you know? And that leads to action. And that's the key. That's another characteristic of narrative thinking as well, is it's action-orientated, it's it's very, you know. So that's one little example for people to kind of just open up some of the possibilities on that. We can go into one more as well, if you want, or feel free to take this wherever you want to go.
Jimmy: I'm loving the energy we've created, and you sparked so many places we could go with this. I think one of the things you said there was around the military lens. And certainly my experience with both conventional and special military forces has been the difference between what I would call conventional military, who I would liken to medium-performing teams, and special forces, who I would liken to high-performing teams, is around that idea of really honest accountability and unpacking things in lessons learned, in debrief, in after-action reviews with a view to not creating a blame circumstance, but actually creating a learning culture. And so there is a you know, everybody can call out, "I saw you step here, and maybe you should have stepped there," and we all learn from that. And equally, I think businesses don't have that opportunity. They don't A lot of people don't have that skill, or they don't have the trust between the individuals within teams to allow those debriefs to take place. And we work at and I know you do as well, in building that connection and trust between people just like we did there with the story, because it's once you've got that connection and trust, you can start to really turn up the performance lens with great skill.
The other thing I heard that you were mentioning was the maybe the old-school tactics and techniques that we're using for new modern-day problems. And I was thinking of the Cynefin framework, specifically, and the fact that a lot of our leadership development is really aligned to that the right-hand side of the model, which is our simple and complicated environments, and the challenges of today are more complex and chaotic. And I want to go into that chaotic space again for a moment, because leaders essentially are being faced with those extremely complex or chaotic contexts more and more frequently.
Hey, Jimmy here. Just wanted to drop into this episode and let you know that we're so grateful for all those reviews that you as listeners leave on our podcast. We put our hearts and souls into the podcast, and the guests we invite are absolutely fantastic. I wanted to share one review with you from a recent episode from Kelly: "Jimmy's experience and thoughtful dialogue provide a phenomenal canvas of learning opportunities from thought leaders in the industry. It was a pleasure both listening and participating. What a great resource to learn valuable tips and tricks to navigating impactful leadership capabilities." So, not only are we thrilled to have incredible guests on the show, but we're also absolutely overjoyed that it's having a positive impact on our listeners like you on the Ways of Working Podcast. Speak soon.
What have you seen in terms of the skill gaps and the things that leaders might be missing to deal with those new, complex and chaotic contexts?
Andrew: So the first thing that comes to mind is you mentioned this thing about the blame culture. So the this idea of yeah, I think the skill gap is probably like a radical accountability, you know, like taking charge and taking responsibility for the issue or the challenge. Yeah, and I think a lot of that stems from the fact that most of the people that we're talking about here, right, these high-performance leaders are A-type people that have really never experienced failure before, you know? Like we're probably like top of their class from, you know, middle school, through high school, through university, you know, in the top of sports teams, and, you know, artistic achievements. There's no like that that experience of failure of like you know, and and being okay with it and seeing it as a learning curve is something that doesn't come naturally to people, you know, and to me that is the learned skill, you know, like really understanding that at some point you're going to hit where the stakes are so high, right, you've worked so high up in your career that you will meet a point that you cannot face and, you know, face successfully the first time you face it, right, because it's going to be so new and so complex and so uncertain, and you're going to fail, right? And I think that's a crucible moment for a lot of people. And Warren Bennis, you know, I don't know if you're probably familiar with like his leadership, he's like kind of the godfather of leadership, he talks about crucible moments a lot. Like those are the moments where we learn, and we really step into our real ability as a leader, you know? And so so many of us shy away from those moments and try and avoid them at all costs, right? And that's where blame comes in. Like, "No, that wasn't me." So now, you've not only have you failed, but you've now missed the opportunity to learn. You know? And so that that's such a such a big point. I think for me, like, kind of starting point for all of this, if you can make that shift in your mind, it opens up for a whole lot of other skills we could talk about.
Jimmy: So true, that we play it safe, don't we? Because we don't want to fail, because the blame culture in the organisation or the organisational appetite is we must succeed at all costs. And actually, what we do is we must play it safe at all costs. And somebody likened it to me to playing a game of soccer where you're just playing not to lose versus trying to win. And there's a massive difference in the energy and the focus and the innovation and the curiosity that you apply when you're just trying not to lose. And those organisations, I think, that really stand out are the ones that play to win or even change the game versus just playing not to lose the game.
So we talked about these gaps that come up, and you talked about the a gap of radical accountability, you talked about a gap of playing it safe or or not being experimental and brave enough. If I am in an organisation that is full of these A-type leaders and we're all, you know, do playing our game and playing politics, and and it's a complex environment and we have a complex business, but we think we're doing a great job, how do you go through the process of helping that business to self-identify or identify where there may be some gaps and opportunities in the way they're performing to help them become a high-performing business, especially when they don't necessarily have that awareness of the problem?
Andrew: Yeah. This was Uh so this is why my podcast is called The Learning Culture Podcast, you know, that's kind of what we're talking about here, right? This is this culture of learning. And so practically, what we did is we built a diagnostic tool to measure this, right? So we've identified 40 sort of vectors to measure this, that's broken out into categories like, you know, organisational design, the team learning aspect, the individual mastery. One of them, they're eight of them in total, but the one that's the most important out of all of them is leadership, right? So the sort of tone at the top, you know, is the common way to talk about this, but that's That is by far the most important determining factor here. And so it starts there, and it starts with those leaders demonstrating like vulnerability, empathy, you know, these qualities which can be developed, you know? This is not This is I think this is the other blind spot that many people have is that, you know, you're either born with empathy or not, so you, you know, it's a bit and curiosity, you mentioned earlier, things like this. You can actually develop these, and it starts with awareness, right? It starts with like an awareness of do I have this? And so much of our work starts with self-awareness, right, for leaders. Like an honest account of where I am right now, and then a projection of where I want to be, right? I want to show up for my team. I want to bring the best out of them and help them reach their potential, and all that. So then, okay, great. What's that gap now? What's that skill gap that you've got? And, yes, empathy is a skill. We can get better at this, and we can develop this, right? And and we can set that pathway out to do that. So yeah, so kind of I would say like the diagnostic has helped a lot, and it's it's a lot of these factors around, you know, just the organisational approach to failure, to collaboration, to supporting, you know, people on the team, mentoring, coaching. I mean, they're they're a lot of aspects to it, but leadership is the most important one.
Jimmy: It's fascinating to me, and I'm I'm smiling for those of you who are listening. I'm uh I'm smiling on screen, because a lot of what Andrew's saying is so aligned with the way we think, which is that great leadership isn't the fact that you're a great salesperson or a great finance person, or a great engineer, or whatever it is. Great leadership is all about the people skills and the soft skills, or the power skills that you have, and your ability to adapt and learn to your new environments and solve those unencountered problems, so they don't become your crucible moment. So you continually have that learning appetite. And I think that's where we're kind of heading here. One of the things that really resonates for me here, also, is once we've identified the gap in knowledge, once we've come across the opportunity for learning and growth, it isn't just about going on a course, is it? It's not We can't fix this with a one-day workshop or something like that. Um what are your thoughts on that?
Andrew: Yeah. So this is one of my favourite talking points. I've been kind of bleating on a bit about for a long time, and that's that it's another kind of misconception that a lot of companies have is that training is is this event that we send people to, right? And and even more pernicious is the fact that people see it as an event that takes you out of work, right? So it's like, "Oh, I've got to go and attend training now, and do we have time to like check our emails? Like I you know, like they're just They thought the thought of are these separate things. And that's not how learning works, right? Like you don't that's not You don't learn as an event. Learning is a process. It's an ongoing process. It's an ongoing process that never ends. Like this whole thing we're talking about of, you know, seeing failure as as an opportunity to learn starts from and and again, I'd encourage anybody who's who's listening to this, who's feeling stuck in their careers, to honestly evaluate, like, which do you think is more important in your life, the stuff you know now, or everything else you don't know, right? And it's the latter. If you really think about this, that's more important, yeah. It's what you don't know, and that's when you As soon as you kind of wrap your head around that, that changes the game, because now learning is a process. Now, I'm always learning, right? And then then I start to recognise I can integrate working and learning. So everything I do is an opportunity to learn. And then that's the individual path, then start to do that in a team, right? So be intentional about reflecting, and now start sharing that with people. And this is a great tip for anybody listening. Again, if you if you're feeling stuck, or something like that, is is start to share your learnings with people. And yeah, a lot of people like this shows up a lot in like I'm quite active on LinkedIn, and a lot of people don't, you know, like don't want to do that. Like, "How do you do this? Like I you know, I wouldn't know what to post," or whatever. And I mean I just mainly just post like stuff that I'm learning, you know? Things that I'm I'm realising for myself, and that and it get and it resonates. You know, like people want to read that sort of stuff. I love reading other people's posts about stuff they're learning, because that's real, you know? And so that's kind of where it starts for me, is like you know, take that that mindset of what I don't know is more important than what I know, see everything as a learning opportunity, and then start sharing that, because what you'll see happens, is you'll start to you you'll be like a magnet. You'll start to attract other people who are maybe on that same journey and learning with you. Now, you've got someone to support you in that. Maybe they are behind you in the journey, and and they are learning from you, and now that you know, they start to show you things that, you know, I you didn't even realise like, "Oh wow, actually, I know more than a lot of people on this topic," you know? Like, and so that's a really cool feeling. And you'll find mentors as well, who are ahead of you, who say, "You know what? I'm going to like yeah, this worked for me. I did this before, and this reminds me of when I was, you know, 2 years ago, whatever." So it's it's an incredibly freeing process, and I'm not saying just do it on LinkedIn, at all. I'm saying on your team, you know, start sharing this in your team. And a practical way to do that, we started doing this at Curious Lion, is have a weekly office hours. And I used to go to those every single week and lead them every single week. And now, I do it monthly, but the team continues to do it on a weekly basis, and that's the agenda. It's just we talk about and share what we're learning and how we're applying it in our in our work.
Jimmy: It's so beautiful that idea of a continuous learning culture. Um I think back to my, you know, if I think back 10, 15 years when I was working in L&D, and one of the things I used to say to people was, "You actually have two jobs. The first job is to do your job, and the second job is to work out how to do your job better." And, as time has gone on, I've actually changed that now, and so your first job is still to do your job really well, but actually, your second job is to learn new ways to positively impact your environment and the job you do in that environment, because it's starting to think much more collectively and about those people that are around me. So how can I learn to positively impact the environment and the way I do my job in that environment? And it goes back to a really fascinating conversation I had with, I guess, one of your future rivals uh sorry, previous rivals who was working at Deloitte, and she said that it was about doing my best 40 hours, not just my fixed 40 hours. So that was about, how do I positively impact my environment? How do I make sure I'm come turning up for the best opportunities and the best meetings in the best way, and also learning to be able to contribute to those meetings really effectively and be at my best? And I thought that was a really beautiful articulation. How do I do my best 40 each week by learning and growing and developing, because if you, you're so right, you know, if you lean on the old skills, how are you growing?
Andrew: Yeah.
Jimmy: And and it's like standing on a riverbank, watching a fast-flowing river, your skills are good for now, but the river's always going to be flowing ahead of you, and you're never going to be catching up, you're going to be left behind, even if you're standing still and you don't want to go any further in your career, you've still got to be in the river paddling to keep up.
Andrew: Yeah, it's a beautiful analogy as well, because the river's always changing, right? Like you you can walk into it, and it's never the same river, and that's true for life and and work and everything, right? It's never the same, and so why prepare for something tomorrow as if it was going to be the same as yesterday?
Jimmy: Exactly.
Andrew: You know? And that's effectively what we're doing like if by relying on these old tactics.
Jimmy: Yeah. Well, I mean, we're we're still training Many organisations are still training leaders to be ready for a 1990s, early 2000s business environment,
Andrew: Yeah.
Jimmy: using the GE mindset, you know? I I study competencies in Korn Ferry, and you know, no disrespect to any of those organisations, but the world has moved on and we have a more complex environment that we need to manage, absolutely. You mentioned your podcast. Please tell us a little bit more about it and the purpose of the podcast, and who is the ideal listener?
Andrew: Yeah. So the purpose of the podcast is to talk to people about how they are building cultures of learning in their workplace. So it's really for anyone who who wants to understand how to create that mindset of continuous improvement, of growth, of connection, of all of that kind of thing as a leader, right? Like how to show up as a leader to promote that kind of culture. So, yeah, it's a It's a lot of fun getting to talk to people and see, you know, like I'm sure you do, right? Like you see how it shows up in so many different workplaces, these kind of things we're talking about. And, I mean, I learn so much every single time about the nuances of it, because like, one thing we should caveat for people is none of this we're talking about is easy, right? It's not, otherwise, we'd all be doing this, right? This idea of like accepting blame, taking responsibility, you know, like seeing failure as a learning opportunity, that's hard. That's really really hard stuff to do. And so it's really cool to hear people who, you know, are making that work in complicated workplaces.
Jimmy: Absolutely, and really nice caveat. None of this is easy. It's simple stuff, and it's fairly obvious stuff,
Andrew: Exactly.
Jimmy: and if you put a group of smart people in a room and you talk about it, they'll all come up with the right answers, but it's that moving from knowing it to actually doing it and executing it and being consistent when you're stressed and worried about it, that's where people like you and I, I think, add value as facilitators and helping that conversation to flow a little bit more effectively, and the podcast is another avenue or way of sharing that message.
You also mentioned in our early earlier on the call, and I'd love to be able to share this with our listeners, that you actually have a course that they can grab and go through which is going to help them also in this journey, right?
Andrew: Yeah, exactly, and and thanks for bringing that back up. So we, you know, I don't I don't think I actually mentioned this during our conversation, but the way we label all of this, I guess, internally is is adaptive intelligence. Like what that's what we're talking about here. And by the way, you mentioned an example earlier on where you said it was it's this person that you had in mind and their determination, and you said the ability to survive. That was one of like it it was one of the phrases there. That is, to me, like that's the core of adaptive intelligence. It it is a truly primal intelligence that we are hard-wired, and have evolved, you know, that that ability. And so, yeah, adaptive intelligence is that. It's like kind of getting back to our roots and saying, "I don't know what's going to happen tomorrow," right? And so I'm not going to try and over-prepare for it. Well, I mean, I am going to prepare for it, that's not true, but I'm not going to create a plan and then stick to that plan, you know? I'm going to be able to adapt on the spot. So so that's adaptive intelligence, and yeah, we've got a a free email course on that where, you know, the team and I have put together kind of try and break it down for people. Like, what are we actually talking about here? What are We identify some of the enemies, you know, blame culture and these kind of things, and then we we sort of break down what we mean by adaptive intelligence and and give some of those tips like that exercise that we ran earlier, so folks can can try this out at home. And yeah, they can go check that out. We've got it at curiouslionlearning.com/flip.
Jimmy: Amazing. And we will pop the link to that course below this episode in the show notes, so please make sure you check out that course. I know I will be. Andrew, this has been such an interesting conversation. If I was to ask you to give a key takeaway or a nutshell thought that encompasses everything we've spoken about today, what would that be?
Andrew: Yeah. I think, if people leave in this conversation, to really think about the fact that as a leader, we are heading into a leadership crisis if we rely only on the tools and methodologies and frameworks that have worked in the past. We have to recognise that the future is 100% uncertain, and we need to be able to show up with that adaptive intelligence to be able to react to whatever happens in front of us, and admit and recognise that what we don't know is so much more important to focus on than what we do already know.
Jimmy: Andrew Barry, CEO and founder of Curious Lion learning, it's been fascinating to talk with you and to learn a whole lot more about what the work you're doing with clients, and to see so many synergies with the way we think around leadership development and some of the the opportunity areas for organisations. Really appreciate you making the time for us, and thank you so much for the wisdom and some of the resources that you've shared. I know that they'll be super useful to our guests.
Andrew: Yeah. Jimmy, thanks for the opportunity to come and talk to to your audience, and uh I love talking to you about this, because you get it and you're passionate about it. And yeah, I I could keep doing this, so yeah, thanks for having me.
Jimmy: Thanks very much.
That's it for this week's episode of The High Performance Leader. If you enjoyed this episode, please drop a review on whichever platform you listened on. We really appreciate it, and it helps us to connect with new listeners. Also, if you haven't already, head to jimmyburroughes.com and download a copy of my latest best seller, Beat Burnout, Ignite Performance. It's the leader's playbook for building a high-performance culture, and it's packed with practical action tips to get you started. Stay tuned for next week's episode of game-changing insights and ideas on The High Performance Leader.