Why Managers Lose Staff Despite Good Salaries

You as a leader need to know your people like you know your business. And if you don't do that, if you can't show up and speak on behalf of your employees, your team, everything else is a moot point.
Welcome back to the Ways of Working Podcast, your weekly dose of practical tips for senior leaders who are looking for a performance edge without burning themselves or their teams out.
Today, we're talking to Kelly Jensen. Kelly is the Senior Director of Enterprise, Succession and Talent Planning at Walmart. Kelly, hi, welcome.
Hi, thank you for having me.
I'm genuinely excited to have you on the podcast today, for a variety of reasons, which we'll get into later. But for those of us who might not know what succession and talent planning is, and how it works in an organisation like Walmart, could you tell us a little bit about it?
Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, when we think about talent succession planning, it's an interesting evolution over the years of how we look at it, how we plan for it, and what we do for a strategic lens. You know, when we think about talent planning, it's really about how do we identify, how do we develop, select, promote talent with the right leadership capabilities, skill sets, experiences, that's going to prepare your business for the future of work, right? So there's a two-part component to it. You have to know your people, and you have to know your business strategy and where it's going. And then there's this really nice in-between, when you really start to unpack your skills, your capabilities, your career aspirations of your people, and then match that to the future of your business when you think about what are next roles for people, how is the business transforming, what is the right role at the right time for the right person? A lot of times we find you put someone in that's the right person into the right role, but it's not the right time, right? Those all have to kind of come together in this dance of sorts that really makes the strategy of Walmart come to life. We are really, really focused on it. And one of the things you'll see, especially in current market trends and the local industry, is that there's a lot of change happening. And one of the things that's so impactful, is making sure you have strong succession plans in place. There's a lot of work and a lot of discussion that goes into play for that, but we know data shows us that the better succession plans you have, the more fiscal returns, the more ROI that your business will have, and so, it truly is tied to pennies and cents to the business as well. So, my job is truly bringing in data, looking at assessments, understanding our people, driving consistent talent conversations across our enterprise. We have 2.3 million people at Walmart, and so it's really important that we know them, and we develop them, and we get them into roles that are what they want to do, and what's best for the business as well.
There's so much we could talk about. Just off that one intro paragraph. I often think about talent and succession planning as building a bridge to the future with your people. But you've got to know where the bridge is going to end up, and you've got to have the building blocks in place to achieve that bridge. And so, as you say, knowing your business strategy, knowing where the business is headed, and then choosing the right building blocks of the right shape, the right colour, the right whatever it is, is the equivalent of choosing the best people for the job, from a talent pool of 2.3 million people, but whatever size of your business is, it's looking around your business and saying, "Well, who is the best building block for that piece of the bridge to take us where we want to go?" And I think a lot of organisations struggle with that. And why do you think it is such a struggle?
You know, I think when I look back on where sort of the downfalls are, I always come back to: it's the basics. We say you have to be brilliant at the basics, and a lot of times we want to skip over that. Leaders want to skip over it because it's not cool, or sexy, or the next big thing, but it's truly so critical to getting everything else done right. And when I say the basics, I always come back to: you as a leader need to know your people like you know your business. And if you don't do that, if you can't show up and speak on behalf of your employees, your team, everything else is a moot point. So, it doesn't matter if you have the best plans in play, if you're making decisions for your teams and their career growth without really knowing who they are and what they want to do, you will never have happy, engaged employees that are in roles that they want to be a part of, and want to be engaged in. And so I always say you have to start there, having career conversations and really diving in. And then to that point is that bridge, right, of where is your business strategy going? Sometimes I think we also as leaders, we silo ourselves. So, we know where our business strategy is going, our own individual team, our own individual organisation. But are you looking broadly at total company strategy? Are you understanding how the dots are connecting and where the future is heading? And that's also just as critical.
And as you say, it just starts with that very basic one-to-one conversation. It's not the, "What work have you delivered this week?" conversation. It's the, "What are your aspirations? What skills are we not tapping into? What things could do you want to do in your future? Where do you see your career going?" It's those conversations that are unlocking the magic, so then when a leader goes into that talent calibration or career development forum, or whatever the word you use in your business is, that they can have that conversation armed with the knowledge of where their people might be best fitted and best suited for the future. No, absolutely. I really like that.
Now, you've been with Walmart since 2012 and you've had a variety of roles. I'm guessing that's because of succession and talent planning, but can you tell us a little bit about where you've come from and how you've got to where you are?
Yeah. You know, I've had a really interesting career so far, and I'm excited to see where it continues to go. You know, I ended up at Walmart sort of as a I came out of college, I wanted to go be a teacher and I saw Walmart as, "I'll get a role there while I find my teaching job." I started as a temp. I started there and I thought, "I'll be here for a couple months. I'll do this job and I'll be good to go." But anyways, fast-forward, best decision I ever made. So, I started out, like I said, as a temp in our technology department, looking at talent development, and from there I really started to have leaders that fed into my growth, and mentors that also pushed me, challenged me, made me think differently on things that helped sort of start to curate a path for myself as I continued on in my progression of my career, ultimately landing me outside of tech into the centre of our organisation serving our enterprise. And one of the things that is so cool about Walmart is we always say there's a path for everyone, and that's so true. There is so much opportunity and so many people and resources and teams that will help you get there. It's all about taking advantage of it and being vocal about what you want out of your career. So, I was lucky to kind of weave in and out and collect really important skill sets, capabilities and experiences through strategy, and leadership development, talent development, before I really took on this sort of talent management role that really looked at succession and talent planning.
Always reminds me of a computer game when you're sort of going around with a little knapsack on your back, putting the gold, and the first aid kit, and stuff. And I think the best careers...
Collecting stickers as you go.
Yeah, exactly. Getting badges and awards. To me, it's that when you think about your career and the career development of your people, it isn't necessarily a linear arrangement, and certainly not anymore. It's more of a career matrix, and it sounds like you've had the opportunity to move around a variety of different roles. Can you talk to us about, and I want to go back on something you said, you said leaders who had challenged the way you were thinking and had exposed you or challenged you with various scenarios or situations, can we dig into that a little bit more?
Yeah, absolutely. I think we as human beings, we love to surround ourselves with people that are going to tell us great compliments and build us up, and we certainly need those people in our lives at different times. But I've found that it's the people in my life that, now don't get me wrong, I've had a great relationship with, to where I respect the straightforward feedback, but I've found those people that are going to be the truth-tellers in your life, and I'm lucky enough to have them, right? And while at first it can be uncomfortable, they do it with the intention of helping you grow, see different perspectives, and there's a lot of decisions I've made in my career that I probably would not have done. I probably would have gone the safe route had it not been for a leader or a mentor to say, "Now, wait a second. That's not going to help you grow. It may sound exciting right this moment, but think long-term for yourself. That's not going to give you the experiences to get you from point A to point C." And so, it's been really, really important for my own career trajectory. And that's something we always tell our leaders too, is giving honest and transparent feedback is difficult. Being a coach as a leader is difficult, but it is the best thing you can do as a leader to help support and foster growth for your people. But it takes practice, and it takes coming at it with a side of humility, and creating relationship with your team members, so that way it's found with mutual respect. But I think it's one of the most overlooked things, and especially in cultures that are so cautious of building relationships and fostering that, that's just as healthy to have transparent and honest feedback.
I'm so aligned. And the idea for me of I'm a business unit lead or a C-suite candidate and I'm looking for that next opportunity, actually one of the things I can really dig back to is how am I creating career paths for my people? How am I growing and showing that I can grow people? But also, what's my personal skill set that I'm working on to be able to give feedback, to be able to give coaching? Because leadership is like fitness, and you need to grow and maintain that muscle. And if you want to go and do the ultramarathon, well, you've got to start with a marathon, which means starting with a 10K, which means starting with a 5K. So, starting small on giving feedback, giving coaching, sharing ideas about people's future, understanding and knowing your people, it's going to pay the dividends for your own career growth down the track, right?
100%. And I think it's just something that what we often also here at Walmart are so focused on is there's the what and the how. We are very execution-oriented at Walmart. You don't get to be the Fortune One without being execution-oriented, right? We love to win, we love to deliver results, and it's important. But the other part of that that's so important to us as well, is the how. How do our leaders show up? What behaviours are they showing? How are they driving their leadership capabilities? And honestly, at the end of the day, that's the stuff that gets people recognised and rewarded. That's the leader that's going to have the high-performing teams, and the, you know, success. It's really driving the how part of being a leader. It's your responsibility, too, right?
I agree completely. And let's keep going with that conversation because I noticed that a lot of people seem to stay at Walmart for a long time. You've been there for 11 years now. Crikey, 11 years. And Doug, the CEO, has been there for a very, very long time. He started off as a cart, cart chaser, I think. I think remember you saying?
Started in the store, yeah.
Yeah, started in the store. What is Walmart doing differently to other organisations that leaders, our listeners, can learn from, can take away and can apply? What are you doing differently?
Yeah, I think the secret sauce about Walmart, there's a couple of different things, and I think it's truly, we believe our associates make the difference. And I think we live that motto out, right? We understand that our associates, especially our frontline associates, are so critical to our business and to the success of our business. One of the things that we've been doing in the last couple of years, I'm not sure if you're familiar with, is Live Better U. And that is our program where we offer college degrees to our associates at zero cost to them. And that in itself, that's just one small program, That's not small program. But that's one program out of many, right, that we offer our associates to help them learn, to help them grow, to help them foster skills and capabilities that are up-and-coming in the workforce, and things that we know we'll need. So, I think there's that component of development and growth, and it is so top-of-mind. Again, I come back to that saying, "There's a path for everyone." There truly is, right? We've got so many different resources and outlets. So, I think there's that piece.
And then I think there's just this idea around we want you to stay at Walmart. We want this to be your career of choice. We want to be the place where you want to come and be proud of. And so, you've got leaders who are committed to helping grow people. You've got all sorts of times and opportunities to feed into each other. I think the other thing I come back to even my own world, right, is we do consistent talent review discussions. We lead quarterly talent reviews all the way up to our Executive Council members. And I think that's something that, as we look at other companies, I don't know how frequently others are meeting with executives all the way down into deeper in their pipeline and consistently talking about talent, identifying who are those folks that are going to go far, and what do we need to do to develop them? What are their gaps and opportunities, and how do we help strengthen them, so that way they are prepared and ready, especially as they step into more complex leadership roles. So, there's just so many components of people who are passionate at all levels of all different groups of people to make sure that we're feeding into our associates and giving them every opportunity to grow and succeed.
I think what you're saying is really resonating and, obviously, there are people who don't stay with Walmart and there are people who are quite vocal about, you know, their feelings around the organisation and why they left and that's going to happen in every organisation, right? We're going to get that disgruntled employee who didn't get the opportunity they wanted.
And what I know is that talent and succession planning in Walmart is a continual work in progress. As you say, you're always having these conversations. You're always building on the, "How do we do this?" What are some of the things that you have seen or you perceive other organisations are really struggling with in that talent and succession planning that you've encountered and have overcome to get to where you are now?
Yeah, I think, you know, a lot of times when it comes to talent planning and succession planning, a lot of times it's paid a lot of lip service. And what I mean by that is, "Yeah, yeah, it's important. Oh, we'll do it. Maybe we'll meet once a year, we'll calibrate on talent and we'll move on." And I've seen where when you treat it as a check-the-box activity, that's all it will ever be. It becomes a very self-fulfilling cycle. "My succession plans aren't great, so I'm not going to put the time and effort into building a good one because they don't get used." Well, if you're not putting the time and effort into building one, of course they're not going to be used. And when you're not using succession plans, why would you go and spend the time to build one, right? So, it becomes the cycle that I think a lot of times it's sort of just like a, "Eh, if I have time, I'll do it." But most people don't have time. They're not going to prioritise it.
And so we see, I've seen when it doesn't work, and there's a lot of negative impacts to that. And one of the cool things about Walmart is that it is so prioritised. It's not something that is seen as a check-the-box activity. We are so focused on building data-driven succession slates. That's the other thing, too, right? Is how do you get away from building succession slates of subjective...
Favourites.
Yes, exactly. And, you know, and I think all companies have probably have their share of, "How did that person get into that role?" right? And and so our aim is to bring in data, take out some of that subjectivity. We always say it's an art and a science, but let's start with the science. Bring in what data components we have, understanding our associates from that lens, and then bring in that art component, right? So, where do they excel? Where do they want to go? What's some of their own data that we can add to this to help create plans that are strategic and robust? And that has paid off dividends in especially at Walmart, when we look at some of these leaders that we have in role today that are absolutely crushing it, continuing to create so much ROI for the business, driving the business forward. Walmart continues to outperform and do a phenomenal job, and that's because of our leaders, and putting the right leaders in the right role at the right time, right? And so that's where it becomes it's not a check-the-box activity, it's a critical component for your business to be successful.
Yeah, one of the things I recall from the work we did with the officer population, who are the sort of senior executives in being built and being deployed into the business, was just that the level of, but well, two things, the sheer talent and passion that they all seem to possess, but also the real humility and humanity. And when you talked about that what and how, it really, I think that was you are selecting great people to lead the future of the business.
I want to go back and dig into the data piece, because you said, you know, start with science, then go to art. What would be the two or three data points that if I was just getting started thinking about talent and succession planning in my business, what would be the two or three data points that I should be looking out for or starting to track so I can start to build a plan?
Absolutely. So, I'll give you a little bit of like, here's where we're at today and sort of a a build into that. So, we have a very, very robust selection and assessment with intense protocols that we follow when we look at selecting and assessing and hiring into roles. So, we leverage different assessments around behavioural and some of those components as well, personality, simulation-based assessments.
What I would say is as you get started, start to think through ways in which you can leverage 360s. 360s are a great tool to start with. That gives you data not only from a a manager or a leader perspective on your employee, but it's also a great growth opportunity for your team as they go through their 360s as well. And I think that's really important to start there.
You know, we always say performance and potential are two different things, and they truly are. However, we know that past performance is a great indicator of future potential. So, you can leverage their performance ratings as a data point as well.
And then there's the human data points, right, as well that kind of like what is career aspirations? This is like, I keep coming back to it, it's so often overlooked, but it is a critical data point to building out a strong pipeline. Again, if you're putting people into roles or placing them into positions that they want nothing to do with, they're either going to underperform or you're going to lose them because they are disengaged and they're going to go somewhere else. So, I often say, like, that is so important that you've got to make sure you're lockstep with them as well as you bring in some of these other assessment or formal or informal assessment data points.
It staggers me, but you're right. How many teams overlook the, "What would you like to do next?" versus the, "Have we got a job for you?" You know, it's that...
Right?
Yeah. That critical data point to add to the quantitative data that you're picking up is just asking that simple question. Where would they see themselves? What would they like to do? How do they see themselves getting there? What are they missing? What would they like to learn to get to that point? And often actually, it takes the strain off leadership teams to have to guess, because they just go ask.
Exactly. And we always say, "Listen," when we talk to, you know, associates at Walmart, we always say we have a a system where you can input that information. "Listen, put your information in because this is your voice in the room when you're not at the table, right? This is a way to make sure that your leadership is equipped with all of the things about what makes you you in the sense of how we can help grow and develop you. You don't want anyone making assumptions or inferences on your behalf. Meet everybody halfway and give them everything about you so that we can make sure we're doing what's best for you as well."
I love that. Thank you so much. I want to switch tack a little bit and talk about how you lead your team and the people that are around you, and particularly how are you building a high-performance culture within your immediate sphere of influence. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Yeah, I've got a phenomenal team. I've got two peers below me that are of the same level, and then I have another associate on my team that helps sort of support all of us. And I will say, you know, it's been we're a new team from last year. We've been all together probably now eight or nine months, and as you get out of that storming and norming phase, right, as a new team, it's been so wonderful to watch as we all kind of come together, support one another. It truly feels like we are a lockstep sort of team.
And one of the things that constantly do is checking in. Always checking. "How are you doing? What do you need? What's on fire? What can I support you with?" I think that's so critical is just checking in, giving that space.
I think the other thing we started for our team meetings is, you know, it's so easy to just hop into what's going on in the business, like, "Let's move, let's move, let's move." And we've started this new thing before every team meeting that's, "Tell me something good." It is so simple. There's nothing, you know, mind-blowing about it, but it does help set the tone of, "Listen, we have to take a moment, celebrate our wins, celebrate our successes, whether that's personal or work." And I think it helps get us in the right mindset to work together.
The other thing I always tell my team is, "Listen, I am a whole person outside of work as well, and my identity is not found through work, and I'm passionate about my job, but there's a lot of other facets about me that make me me." And the same is true for them as well. And I think it's really important as leaders that we see our people as whole beings, not just people that show up 8:00 to 5:00, 9:00 to 5:00, and do a job, but we see them as complete individuals that have passions, and hobbies, and things going on in their life that has nothing to do with their jobs. And I think as we lead more with empathy and put that first and foremost, you get so much more back from your teams and from your people than you can ever imagine. And I think that's the secret sauce to creating high-performing teams. Along with your normal things of accountability, and making sure everybody knows where they stand, transparency and goals, and all of those things, right? But I think empathy is the piece that is so critical and makes the difference.
I feel like you crawled inside my head for a second there when you were talking about whole person. We've been doing a lot of work recently talking about purpose and the four layers of purpose, which starts at the bottom with personal purpose. What is my reason for being on this planet? Who am I and why am I here? And that very quickly transitions into, "And what job do I do because of my purpose?" And when we get the alignment of role and personal purpose, that creates our identity.
Exactly.
So many leaders overlook the concept of identity. They just go, "Job title and job responsibilities." But actually, there's a whole lot of what's the purpose of your role and why did you choose this role? And why is that meaningful for you? And how is that contributing to your life? I think there's some wonderful conversations that leaders can have in open or closed forums to get to know their people, as you say, the personal purpose level.
That's exactly it. And I think, too, as you Again, we come back to, as you know your people and you think about the roles they're doing, constantly thinking of: how can I connect them with the right people? How can I put them on special projects that's going to not only challenge them and develop them, but continue to align them to their interests and their wants and their needs? I mean, how many times do we have roles that may evolve or shift or change from what we originally thought they were going to be, and maybe now there's different workload associated with it or things have shifted and changed. And so, we know roles are never static. They're always shifting and changing. But for me, it's always about, okay, tell me what you want to develop in this year. I'm going to partner with you. And while I may not, you maybe there's parts of your job that you love, maybe there's parts of your job that you're like, "I could take it or leave it." How do I then connect you into, like I said, these projects or other components of the team, building out your cross-functional skills and capabilities, to better align to what you're passionate about, right? Because again, the more you align people to what they're passionate about, the more you get out of them, and that's so exciting to see. It's very, very cool to see when that happens.
Light them up.
I'm excited listening to this, because from my perspective, you know, it's that whole if you can engage the heart and the head, you're doubling the horsepower and then the hands and feet do the work, right? But yeah, there is that whole concept of find out what your people are passionate about, and that turns into high-performance cultures. Find out what your people are passionate about doing next, and that turns into succession planning.
That's exactly it. And we always talk about, as you think about your team, don't just think about what's next for them. Think about what what are the next two roles for them, and plan for that. We often times are so short-sighted as leaders, as just looking at what is that next role for our people versus seeing that bigger picture, because that bigger picture may look a little different. And how we develop and prepare our teams for that bigger picture is really critical to the success of their development and their career. And I think it's just the responsibility a leader has to develop and build their team is one of the greatest responsibilities anyone can have. And it's fun and it's engaging, but it is critical to putting your efforts and your energy into getting your people where they want to go.
Agreed. And what I remember, one of the conversations we had a, oh, long time ago, was around the fact that that next role for them, that next opportunity for them, may not be in your team.
Mhm.
And so, actually, thinking of it When you talked earlier about about the, "What's our business strategy in our business unit or our bit of the business, but what's the bigger business strategy? And how can my people best contribute to the wider, the enterprise strategy?" How do you encourage leaders, or what would you suggest to leaders, should I say, who are thinking, "Well, I don't want to lose my best people because they're my best people." How do we overcome that?
It's a tough problem. It really is. I think it's a natural human component to say, "Wait, I don't want to give them up because what's going to happen to our business continuity? How is that going to detract from our team?" But I think it's doing what's right for the business and what's right for your talent. So, first and foremost, start there. Take yourself out of it, right, and think about what's best for your talent.
As a parent myself, sometimes it's like, I don't want to do certain things. I'm tired. I want to, you know, I don't want to go get up in the middle of the night, but it's like, what's best for my child? And sometimes there's a little bit of I have to take myself out of the situation and do what's best for my child. Not that I'm equating being a leader to a parent, but there are some similarities there, right? And so, you know, I think it's important to leaders to understand, listen, you encouraging your associates or your employees to go and take on some cross-functional roles outside of your team could come back to you tenfold, right? Because now, in a couple of years, that same person might come back to your team. Now they've got this broadened experience. They've got all these new skills and capabilities they would have never gotten had they stayed siloed. And now they're coming back to your team with such a new perspective to solve problems that you probably wouldn't have been able to solve beforehand.
And as well, the more we continue as leaders to allow our talent to grow, and flourish, and build skill sets, when you allow someone to move on and you celebrate that, and you become a talent exporter, you create opportunity on your team to bring in someone else who's just as amazing, right? And so, there's so much possibility there if we just allow ourselves to get past the, "What happens in the next three months because we've got to onboard someone new?" And you look at that longer-term of, "Oh, my word. Not only have I made the business stronger, I've made this individual stronger. But now I'm also creating growth and opportunity for someone to come onto my team that might bring a whole new perspective that's going to solve different problems than we would have ever solved before."
So, it's a mindset shift. It's a muscle that I think leaders need to continue to lean in and grow. It's certainly something that we are continuing to focus on here at Walmart. How do we create enterprise associates that have broadened skills, depth of perspective, and have that ability to see broadly and across, and it's really important, especially as we think about the future of work and how skill sets are evolving, and how no longer can you just be, you know, singular in a skill set. You've got to have some tech mindset or some product lens. There's all sorts of different things that, as the evolved leader or The leader of the future. Yeah. The Of the future, you've got to have these broadened skill sets. So, how do we as leaders help create that?
I agree. And in my mind, there's also the positive reflection, we talk go back to that how, the positive reflection on the leader who is a talent farm. And it reminds me of that proverb, you know, the way to identify top talent is they grow talent who can grow talent.
Exactly.
And it you know, it's that how are the they're almost the farmer creating the soil that great crops can grow in, but those crops can create great food and great flowers. And and the whole analogy just really flows for me there, that, yes, it could be short-term pain to let go of your talent, but there's long-term gain when they come back. But there's also long-term reflection on you as a highly capable leader who can develop and grow these people who are benefiting the whole business.
Exactly.
That's exactly it. Yep.
Amazing. Final couple of questions, Kelly. Number one, what are you working on right now that you're excited about that's going to make a big difference to talent and succession or to your life?
Yeah. You know, we've got a couple of things in the works this year. A couple of things that I'm super excited about at Walmart. One is very basic, and I come back to that laying the basic foundation is driving a very, very consistent talent narrative. So, when you're working in an enterprise across Walmart US, and International, and Sam's Club, and all, you know, when you think of Walmart Inc., you want to talk about talent, plan for talent and approach talent the same way across the board. So, we are focusing really, really hard this year on making sure that we're all speaking the same language, we're developing talent together. And that is going to further enable talent sharing, getting talent into different places because it's an apples-to-apples sort of discussion. So, there's that piece that's really exciting. We've got a lot of momentum around it. We're getting people aligned, and it's been really, really great work.
The other piece is we are working on digitising talent planning. This is the one I'm most excited about. It's a huge component to the work we do, especially I keep coming back to: listen, we've got so many people at Walmart, how do we digitise the talent planning experience in a way that enables us to capture data holistically, capture notes on people holistically, allows us to democratise visibility to our talent across the enterprise, especially for our people partners and our CPOs, and bring them all together. Right now, we're in a variety of different ways, but this next year, it will start to sew that together to truly digitise, be in change behaviours with how we approach talent planning, hopefully leading to much more strategic discussions and decisions when it comes to talent.
That sounds like an enormous amount of technological know-how.
Yes. It's exciting.
And as you say, building on some basic activities initiating the work, and then now, as you say, doing the more sophisticated stuff.
Mhm.
But it does start with those basic one-to-one conversations, doesn't it? And we keep going back to that, but it is the the core exciting element of it.
Be brilliant at the basics, is what we say.
Kelly, I have so enjoyed chatting with you today. Thank you so much for coming on and being a guest on the podcast. If people want to get in touch with you or are interested in learning more about what Walmart's doing, how can they reach you?
I'd say reach out through my LinkedIn, and happy to chat further, connect. Always open to meeting new people who want to talk about talent succession planning, so. Yeah, feel free.
Amazing, and we'll include your LinkedIn profile in the show notes for this episode. Amazing. Kelly, thank you again. Really appreciate your generosity of time, and knowledge, and spirit.
Thank you.
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